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Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
I would not qualifying services as "composable" in the sentence, "From a holistic perspective, a...". Jeff, Frank, and Duane have already made the case. -----Original Message----- From: Francis McCabe [mailto:fmccabe@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:32 PM To: Mike Poulin Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] Since we do v. little wrt composable services, and since there is a vast amount of other issues that have nothing to do with composability, I would not emphasize the importance of composability in the introduction. On Sep 25, 2009, at 1:21 PM, Mike Poulin wrote: > I do not have any strong objections. > > 'Composable' means to me that the service may be composed; the > question is - composed by what and how this corresponds to > 'independent'? 'Composite' or 'aggregate' (as Ken pointed once) is the > service, which is composed already by other services, which comprises > other services, i.e. it is not independent. This is what I tried to > "EmFasis" :-) > > You, folks, decide. > > - Michael > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com> >> To: "Lublinsky, Boris" <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, "Mike Poulin" >> <mpoulin@usa.com >> >, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa- >> rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:01:34 -0500 >> >> >> Mike, I like the sentence. Boris, I think that "composable services" >> is the correct term. I've heard many "experts" and "gurus" use the >> term and concept since at least 2003 and seems to me to put the >> "EmFasis on the rite Silobbal", as my dad would say. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com] >> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:50 PM >> To: Mike Poulin; Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris; >> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >> >> Composable? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:27 PM >> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; Lublinsky, Boris; >> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >> >> Bob, >> this is the phrase: >> >> From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is a network of >> independent services, machines, the people who operate, affect, use >> and govern those services as well as ... >> >> >> I propose to say: "...a network of independent and composite >> services, >> machines, the..." >> >> - Michael >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com> >>> To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, "Lublinsky, Boris" >> <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:40:28 -0500 >>> >>> >>> There was one sentence that you sent that I could not make head or >> tail >>> of as I noted. Otherwise, I thought I had incorporated all of your >>> comments >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:31 PM >>> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; Lublinsky, Boris; >>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>> >>> I am afraid, I am lost. I do not see some of the crucial changes I >>> advocated for and you agreed to accommodate: >>> >>> >>> "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood in >>> terms of its support of business services." >>> - MP - great! >>> >>> "Business services provide business functionality in pursuit of >> business >>> outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts that facilitate >>> connectivity of functional units to realize and support the business >>> services." >>> - MP - my proposal: 'Business services provide business >>> functionality >> in >>> pursuit of the business outcome; while IT artifacts facilitate >>> connectivity of functional units to realize and support the business >>> services.' >>> >>> "Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but is of >> both >>> worlds." >>> - MP - great! You commented: 'This doesn't make sense to me. It is >>> not >>> connected to SOA in anyway' but left the statement. I am for having >> this >>> statement as it is (it is not my text but very right one IMO) >>> >>> "Neither Business nor IT completely own, govern, and manage this SOA >>> Ecosystem. The SOA Ecosystem must accommodate both sets of concerns >> for >>> to fulfill its purpose and potential." >>> - MP - great! >>> >>> "Business needs to drive the development of services delivered >>> through >>> processes and its supporting IT, which provides the capability that >>> satisfies those needs. This is the business value of SOA." >>> - MP - development of services is not necessary delivered through >>> processes and supporting IT. This is why my proposal is: >>> 'Business needs to drive the development of services, which >>> provides >>> the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business >>> value >> of >>> SOA.' >>> or >>> 'Business needs to drive the development of services delivered >> through >>> Business and IT, which provides the capability that satisfies those >>> needs. This is the business value of SOA.' >>> >>> (i.e. none Business or IT , or both; SOA is in between them) >>> >>> >>> Thus, my variant of the text looks like this: >>> >>> The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood in >> terms >>> of its support of business services. Business services provide >> business >>> functionality in pursuit of the business outcome; while IT artifacts >>> facilitate connectivity of functional units to realize and support >>> the >>> business services. Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly >>> Business, but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely >> own, >>> govern, and manage this SOA Ecosystem. The SOA Ecosystem must >>> accommodate both sets of concerns for to fulfill its purpose and >>> potential. Business needs to drive the development of services, >>> which >>> provides the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the >> business >>> value of SOA. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> - Michael >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com> >>>> To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, "Lublinsky, Boris" >>> <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:56:23 -0500 >>>> >>>> >>>> Try this. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:31 AM >>>> To: Lublinsky, Boris; Mike Poulin; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Boris has reminded me one thing: in the paragraph following the two >>>> paragraphs we are discussing now we say something like 'SOA is a >>> network >>>> of independent services...' I would modify this phrase a bit saying >>>> something like 'SOA is a network of independent and composite >>>> services...' >>>> >>>> Sorry, I did not mention this earlier. >>>> >>>> This is all what I wanted to say about SOA and Buz. >>>> >>>> - Michael >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Lublinsky, Boris" >>>> To: "Mike Poulin" , soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:04:35 -0500 >>>> >>>> >>>> I tend to agree with Mike/jeff >>>> See below >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 5:15 AM >>>> To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>> Importance: High >>>> >>>> I believe service orientation has the enormous potential to become >> the >>>> basic business operational model and SOA will be the basis of the >>>> Business Architecture. >>>> >>>> Since we do not have time for this discussion now, let's return to >> our >>>> text. >>>> >>>> B.L. Moreover, as I re read the text I am realizing more and more >> that >>>> this is not so much about SOA but mostly about ESB. I am of course >>> over >>>> simplifying, but hopefully you got the jest. We managed to leap >>>> frog >>>> business architecture and servicizing the enterprise and jump >> directly >>>> into the issues of service interaction - ecosystem. This is fine, >> but >>>> who is going to live in this wonderful ecosystem. >>>> >>>> >>>> The only thing I hope to set in the RA standard is an open door to >> the >>>> Business opportunity of SOA instead of locking it in IT. >>>> >>>> This means I vote for enough 'ambiguity' in the text that would >> allow >>>> anybody to go with SOA in both - technical and business - >> directions, >>> if >>>> needed. >>>> >>>> B.L. Fair enough. Lets create the door, but may be, just may be >>>> open >>> it >>>> up slightly for the next review. This is why I think, the text >>>> under >>>> discussion, does not belong in the ecosystem, but rather above it. >> We >>>> talk about business/IT alignment and then define ecosystem >>>> >>>> The following is my modifications to the text that together aim >>>> only >>> one >>>> statement: "SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but is of >>> both >>>> worlds." Particularly: >>>> >>>> a) I agree in full with: >>>> < >>>> components and subsystems. They must be understood within their >>> context >>>> or environment; particularly, when there are many interactions >>>> among >>> the >>>> parts. For example, a biological ecosystem is a self-sustaining >>>> association of plants, animals, and the physical environment in >> which >>>> they live. Understanding an ecosystem often requires this holistic >>>> perspective of the system and its environment rather than one >> focusing >>>> on the system's individual parts.>> >>>> >>>> b) I DISagree with << The SOA Ecosystem described in this document >>> must >>>> be understood in terms of its support of business services, which >>>> is >>> its >>>> environment.>> >>>> My proposal is this: >>>> << The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood >> in >>>> terms of its support of business services.>> >>>> >>>> B.L. See comment above >>>> >>>> c) I DISagree with << Business services provide business >> functionality >>>> in pursuit of the business outcome; while SOA services provide IT >>>> artifacts that facilitate connectivity of functional units to >> realize >>>> and support the business services. Therefore, SOA is neither wholly >> IT >>>> nor wholly Business, but is of both worlds. >> >>>> My proposal is this: >>>> < >>>> outcome, together with its technical realization and support >> provided >>> by >>>> Information Technology. Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor >> wholly >>>> Business, but is of both worlds.>> >>>> >>>> B.L. How about: >>>> << SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but is of both >>> worlds. >>>> Without involvement of the business, defining service functionality >>>> based on the enterprise business model and aligned with the >> enterprise >>>> business processes, SOA can't fulfill the promise of business/IT >>>> alignment and support for flexible, process-driven enterprise. >> Without >>>> involvement of IT, implementing SOA ecosystem, supporting flexible >>>> service deployment, interactions, monitoring and management SOA >> can't >>>> fulfill the promise of scalable, maintainable IT.>> >>>> >>>> d) I DISagree with << Business needs drive the development of >> services >>>> delivered through IT, which provides the capability that satisfies >>> those >>>> needs. This is the business value of SOA.>> >>>> My proposal is: >>>> << Business needs to drive the development of services, which >> provides >>>> the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business >> value >>> of >>>> SOA.>> >>>> or >>>> << Business needs to drive the development of services delivered >>> through >>>> Business and IT, which provides the capability that satisfies those >>>> needs. This is the business value of SOA.>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> - Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" To: "Mike Poulin" , "Lublinsky, >>> Boris" >>>> , rexb@starbourne.com >>>>> Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:30:41 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We are trying to get to the same concept, but really what is being >>>>> discussed is a cultural paradigm shift. In my view, the execution >>>>> context is the technical context within which the service >> components >>>>> exist and within in which they are executed as enablers and >> support >>>> for >>>>> the process. The service components are the parts and >> subassemblies. >>>>> The process flow, which is part of the execution context, as >> defined >>>> by >>>>> the orchestration or choreography (both of which have business >> rules >>>>> engines to ensure that policies/standards/business rules/etc. are >>>>> followed). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Business process modeling as instantiated by the assembled of the >>> SOA >>>>> service components, with the associated business rule, links the >>>> system >>>>> to the business processes. Provided that the business processes >>> serve >>>>> the goals or objectives or the business (that is provides value to >>> the >>>>> business) then the tools as instantiated in the SOA service >>> multiplies >>>>> the effectiveness of the process. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The cultural shift involves the fact that when business challenges >>> or >>>>> opportunities arise, the business processes and SOA supporting >>>> services >>>>> can meet those challenge because SOA enable agile systems. I >> define >>>>> agility as "successful response to unexpected challenges and >>>>> opportunities." BTW, this is the definition of the Agility Forum >>>> (circa >>>>> 1990) associated with Lehigh University (that is Nagel and his >> group >>>>> that wrote the book on the agile enterprise). Currently, the >>>> monolithic >>>>> architecture of most ERP-like systems do not allow agility, while >>>>> functional architecture place emphasis on optimizing for the >>> function; >>>>> creating silos. There is an axiom in Systems Engineering that >>>>> optimizing the subsystems, sub-optimizes the system. SOA enables >>> both >>>>> optimization and agility of the system, but requires mapping of >> the >>>>> system to the organization's processes as the price >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I could and have said a great deal more, but I think that is >> enough. >>>>> The linkage is there for anyone to get the maximum value out of >> the >>>> SOA >>>>> and both the business processes and the composite applications >>>> (process >>>>> assembled service components???) or whatever operating in the >>>> execution >>>>> context, must enable and support the processes. As the processes >>>> change >>>>> in response to challenges and opportunities, both the processes >> and >>>> the >>>>> composite application must respond quickly and successfully. This >> is >>>>> not the way it is done now, and that is the cultural change that >> is >>>>> needed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 PM >>>>> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris; rexb@starbourne.com >>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Robert, >>>>> >>>>> as we know SOA defines Execution Context. Since we never defined >>> what >>>> it >>>>> includes, I suggest (and promote this opinion) that EC includes >>>> Business >>>>> EC and Technical EC. Business services cannot be 'the environment >> of >>>> the >>>>> SOA Ecosystem' because it is included into SOA. Business EC >> defines >>>>> business execution policies and Technical EC defines technical >>>> execution >>>>> policies. SOA Ecosystem comprises both business and technical >>> realms. >>>>> >>>>> Phrase "while SOA services provide IT artifacts that facilitate >>>>> connectivity of functional units to realize and support the >> business >>>>> services."" has a problem because SOA service does not necessary >>>>> "facilitate connectivity of functional units". For instance,a >>>>> self-contained stand-alone business technical service realises its >>> own >>>>> business function or feature w/o joining with other "functional >>>> units". >>>>> Plus, SOA Service may or may not contain any IT artefacts. Time >> when >>>> SOA >>>>> was considered a pure technical thing is gone (and for good). >>>>> >>>>> I agree with you on "The value of IT is the same as any other >> tool". >>>>> This is why I think that statement " Business needs drive the >>>>> development of services delivered through IT, which provides the >>>>> capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business value >> of >>>>> SOA" requires corrections. Development of services is not >> necessary >>>>> delivered through IT, it may be purely manual business service and >>>> many >>>>> services of such nature exist. >>>>> >>>>> Based on my discussion in several Business Architecture groups on >>> the >>>>> Web, any business process in Business may be defined as business >>>> service >>>>> with or without technical component. Implementation of the >> business >>>>> service, as we know, is not that important for service-oriented >>>>> Architecture. >>>>> >>>>> If we state that SOA positions BETWEEN Business and IT, we MAY NOT >>>>> attribute it to IT only and confront it with the business service. >>>> This >>>>> is illogical. >>>>> >>>>> - Michael >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" >>>>> To: "Lublinsky, Boris" , rexb@starbourne.com >>>>> Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , mpoulin@usa.com, >> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:19:49 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> See below >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:58 AM >>>>> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); rexb@starbourne.com; Lublinsky, Boris >>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> >>>>> I have no idea what this means: >>>>> >>>>> "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood >> in >>>>> terms of its support of business services, which is its >>> environment." >>>>> >>>>> What is which environment? >>>>> Business services are the environment of the SOA Ecosystem. >>>>> >>>>> Also: >>>>> " Business services provide business functionality in pursuit of >>>>> business outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts that >>>>> facilitate connectivity of functional units to realize and support >>> the >>>>> business services." >>>>> >>>>> SOA services is a complete misnomer. Infrastructure I can buy, but >>> SOA >>>>> services? >>>>> I disagree with that. The infrastructure provides nothing except >> an >>>>> operating context. Only when SOA Service (which in my >> understanding >>> is >>>>> a composite application with contractual obligations) provide any >>>> value >>>>> to the customer. >>>>> >>>>> And finally: >>>>> " Business needs drive the development of services delivered >> through >>>> IT, >>>>> which provides the capability that satisfies those needs. This is >>> the >>>>> business value of SOA." >>>>> >>>>> This has several problems: >>>>> 1. Business is concerned only with business services and drives >>> their >>>>> design, not development 2. What is the business value? What does >>> this >>>>> points to? >>>>> >>>>> My understanding of the term development is that it includes >> design, >>>> but >>>>> if you want to change it...The value of IT is the same as any >> other >>>>> tool, to multiple the value of the process. >>>>> Adam Smith pointed this out in Chapter 1 of Book 1 of the Wealth >> of >>>>> Nations. This is a point lost on IT as this comment demonstrates. >>>>> >>>>> I think we are digressing. >>>>> >>>>> I hope not. >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:46 AM >>>>> To: rexb@starbourne.com; Lublinsky, Boris >>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> >>>>> Hi: >>>>> >>>>> Please try this edit. >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:34 AM >>>>> To: Lublinsky, Boris >>>>> Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >>>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> >>>>> Very minor grammar correction, Boris, >>>>> >>>>> I'm just a nit picker. >>>>> >>>>> ;) >>>>> Rex >>>>> >>>>> Lublinsky, Boris wrote: >>>>>> I haven't seen people discussing my grammar so much lately. I am >>>> doing >>>>> >>>>>> something wrong sorry. >>>>>> I am fine with managing >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:07 AM >>>>>> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) >>>>>> Cc: Lublinsky, Boris; Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; > > > >>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm being technically challenged at the moment with remote >>>>> participation >>>>>> >>>>>> in overlapping meetings the latter of which isn't starting >>>> and > > the former of which appears to have ended early while I >>>> dropped > > off to attend the latter.Sheseh! >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's how I would correct Boris's grammar with one >>>> word-substitution: >>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> >>>>>> don't want the concept of "orchestration" being confused with >> the >>>> use >>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>> "orchestrating" so I am changing that to "managing" which we >> don't >>>>> spend >>>>>> >>>>>> much attention on in the RAF yet .(I just want to avoid anyone >>>> asking >>>>> if >>>>>> >>>>>> we mean that "all business services must be delivered via >>>>>> orchestration."): >>>>>> >>>>>> Business drives the definition of business services aligned >>>>> with > enterprise business functionality and business >>> processes, > > > managing execution of these services, while IT >>> defines > > > infrastructure services, >>>>> >>>>>> providing support across a wide range of business services >>>> and > > implements both types of services. Such collaboration > >>> allows > > stronger communications between both, by creating > >>> one-to-one > > mapping between business and IT artifacts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regardless, since it is clear that Bob did not actually >>> pick > up > > Boris's additions and so didn't drop them, and Ken >>> had one > more > > addition he was considering, could we ask Ken >>> to correct > > Boris's > grammar, fold in Bob's slight rewording >>> and add his > > piece? Then, > perhaps Jeff and/or Jim could make >>> the crisp > > differentiation > between business services and SOA >>> services or > > between business > services and IT >>>>> >>>>>> services >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Rex >>>>>> >>>>>> Ellinger, Robert S (IS) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Didn't intend to drop Boris's additions...must of missed > >>> them. > I >> thought we were to start from where you left off, so >>>> that is > >> what I >>>>>>> >>>>>> did. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry Boris...Perhaps we were working concurrently and the >>> material >>>>> crossed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:10 AM >>>>>>> To: Lublinsky, Boris >>>>>>> Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >>>>>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >> business] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My task was to get the work rolling. I have minor quibbles with >>>>>>> >>>>>> correct >>>>>> >>>>>>> English grammar in Boris's additions, and I agree with >>> Jeff > > that >> the distinction between "business service' and >>> "SOA > > service" >> needs to be made. In general I think simpler >>> is > > better, but as >> long as the grammar is corrected, I'd be >>> fine > > with Boris's >> additions. I don't have any problems >>> with Bob's > > minor rewording, >> but i don't see why he dropped >>> Boris's > > additions.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll look at it again in the morning. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Rex >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lublinsky, Boris wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You through away all changes that were suggested after this >>>> initial >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> one? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:41 PM >>>>>>>> To: rexb@starbourne.com >>>>>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >> business] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd recommend some minor rewording... -----Original >> Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:16 PM >>>>>>>> To: rexb@starbourne.com >>>>>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >> business] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> First pass at the Section 1.2 as an additional paragraph >>>>> after >>> the first paragraph. I include the first paragraph >>> and > > the >>> start of the current second paragraph here for >>> the > > context: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1.2 Service Oriented Archtecture - An Ecosystem Perspective >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many systems cannot be understood by a simple decomposition >> into >>>>>>>> >>>>>> parts >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and subsystems -- in particular when there are many >>> > >>>> interactions between the parts. For example, a biological >>> > >>>> ecosystem is a self-sustaining association of plants, animals, >>>>>>>> and the hysical environment in which they live. >>> Undestanding > > an >>> ecosystem often requires a holistic >>> perspective rather > > than one >>> focusing on the >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> system's individual parts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies the >>>>>>>> boundary between Business and IT. It is neither wholly IT >>>> nor >>> > wholly Business, >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely own, >>>>> govern >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of concerns must >>>> be > >>> accommodated for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its > >>> purposes. > >>> Business >>>>> >>>>>>>> needs drive the development of services delivered through >>>> IT, > >>> providing the capability that satisfies those needs. >>>> This is > >>> the business value of SOA. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is a > >>> network > of >>> independent services, machines, the people who > >>> operate, > affect, >>> use and govern those services as well as > >>> ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Rex >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Rex Brooks wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Ken, Everyone, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I believe that the email you are looking for is your reply to >>>>> Frank: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm-ra/email/archives >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>>> 200906/msg00012.html >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is what Frank Wrote Jun 14, 2009, at 7:12 PM: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "I sympathize with the sentiment behind this. We have >>>>>>>>> consistently identified SOA as being at the boundary >>> between > >>>> > business and IT. It >>>>> >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> neither wholly IT nor wholly business but is of both worlds. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> That represents potentially one of SOA's greatest >>> opportunities; >>>>> and >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the source of its weaknesses: neither business nor IT can >>>>> completely >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> own/grok SOA. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Frank" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The email referenced above contains the most or all of the >>> thread >>>>> "Are >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> we being ignored?" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm not sure we would help ourselves if we say more than >>>>> "The >>>> SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies >>> the > > boundary >>>> between Business and IT. It is neither >>> wholly IT > > nor wholly >>>> Business, but is >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely own, >>>>> govern >>>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of >>> concerns > > MUST be >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> accommodated >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its purposes." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Rex >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Laskey, Ken wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is a reminder that this week we are scheduled to >> discuss >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> adding >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the text on the overlap of SOA and business. Below is text >>>>> suggested >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> by Michael Poulin and there is another email from Boris with >> a >>>> lot >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> idea that would need to be condensed and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> added/substituted/combined. >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Let's get the discussion far enough along that we can bring >>> this >>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (close to) closure by the end of Wednesday's call. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I remember there was an email where Frank wrote something >> very >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> crisp >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> on this subject that I replied was exactly what we needed to >>>> say. >>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I have no idea when that email thread >> occurred. >>>> If >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> someone could find it, I think it would be a good >> contribution >>>> to >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Back to Mike's suggested text, two immediate things come to >>>> mind. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. Section 1.4 is a discussion of the views and this is not >> a >>>> view >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> be added as 1.4.4. I think it fits after section 1.2, >> possibly >>>> as >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> another short section. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. It is not obvious to me what the phrase "the > >>> similarity > of >>>>> the principles of the Value Networks > >>> business model" > means. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ken >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> ------ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dr. Kenneth Laskey >>>>>>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>>>>>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 703-983-1379 >>>>>>>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] Sent: > >>>>>>>>> Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:31 AM >>>>>>>>>> To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT >>> and >>>>> business >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Folks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I join Francis and Boris in suggestion that SOA RA's >>>> Introduction >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> would benefit from adding a couple of paragraphs on the >>>>>>>>>> business aspects of SOA positioned across Business and >>> IT. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> In the previous message I composed a few words for a small >>>> section >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> this topic and propose to discuss them as an initial draft >>>> during >>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> next (or following) Telecom. Proposed text may be found in >> the >>>>> middle >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of this message chain. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Any suggestions? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - Michael >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: todos for PR2 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >> Date: >>> 8 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> Sep >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2009 16:21:26 -0000 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business" is >> what >>> I >>>>> write >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> a lot for last few months. So, let me propose a strawman for >>>> this >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> text: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1.4.4 Business Value of the Service Oriented Architecture >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> A Service Oriented Architecture realizes principles of the >>>> concept >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> service orientation in the sphere of architecture. The >>>>> architecture >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> in the organisation comprises both business >>> architecture > > and >>>>> technical architecture of the systems >>> [ref. to TOGAF > > 9.0]. >>>>> While SOA-based systems address >>> aspects of the > > technical >>>>> architecture, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> the >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> similarity of the principles of the Value Networks business >>>> model >>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> SOA allows us to see SOA as a conceptual bridge between >>>>>>>>>> corporate Business and IT. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Noticed similarity opens up new possibilities for Business >> and >>>> IT >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> to >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> construct service-oriented customer-centric convergent >>> solutions >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> for >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> business problems. Service orientation enables > >>> operational > >>>>> and technical flexibility, which contributes >>>> to business > >>>>> efficiency the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> great deal. The Service Orientation concept has the > > >>> potential >>>>> not only to align IT with Business, but also to > >>>> align the >>>>> entire >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> company >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> with the market dynamics. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If the ideas in this writing are acceptable, I will work on >>> the >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> wording. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - Michael Poulin >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: Francis McCabe To: "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org RA" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:24:08 -0700 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. As Boris alluded to, I think that a paragraph or two >>>> in > >>>>> the introduction positioning SOA on the cusp between >>>> IT and > >>>>> business could be very useful. It is also pretty >>>> faithful > to >>>>> the RAF! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 2. The concept of interaction in the RM referred > > >>> *everything* >>>>> involved in interacting with services. For the >>>>> RA we have to >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> unpack >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> that some. This is the foundation for the multi-leveled >>> concept >>>> of >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> joint action. This should go in Section 3.1. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 3. I think that Danny's security diagram should be > >>> updated > >>>>> and incorporated. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 4. The trust and willingness stuff should go in. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 5. It would be good if we could go through the text bolding >>>>> defined >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> concepts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- >>>> [Date >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home] >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Rex Brooks >>>>>>>> President, CEO >>>>>>>> Starbourne Communications Design >>>>>>>> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >>>>>>>> Berkeley, CA 94702 >>>>>>>> Tel: 510-898-0670 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> - To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the >>>>> OASIS >>> TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to >>> all > > your TCs >>> in OASIS >>>>> >>>>>>>> at: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/ >> my_workgroups.php >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The information contained in this communication may be >>>> CONFIDENTIAL >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> and is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) named >> above. >>>> If >>>>> >>>>>>> you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby >>> notified > > that >> any dissemination, distribution, or copying >>> of this >> > > communication, or any >>>>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>>>> its contents, is strictly prohibited. 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