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Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa-rm-ra] p ositioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
Before composability/composition of services, there has to be something to compose. That is why 99% of the RAF is about other stuff; such as action/trust/description/governance etc. etc. etc. On Sep 25, 2009, at 2:50 PM, Lublinsky, Boris wrote: > If the services are not composable, then how are they better > compared to existing applications > > --- original message --- > From: "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com> > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa- > rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] > Date: September 25, 2009 > Time: 4:41:26 PM > > Duane, I'm picturing you tugging on Superman's cape, while spittin' > into > the wind, tilting at windmills and messin' with Bad Bad LeRoy Brown, > while sliding into heaven sideways, brew in hand singing, "What a > Ride!" > > You're right, and so is Frank, and I definitely prefer "aggregate-able > or capable of being included in various types of aggregations,"... > > but I think the boat already left, folks. We don't have to catch up > with > it nor need we catch the next one. It will go as it will. > > I personally don't have strong enough feelings about it to be road > kill > for it or against it. I happen to be involved in a set of SOA services > that absolutely MUST be composable, but I am satisfied that they > will be > regardless of how this sentence in theSOA-RAF introduction is worded. > > It makes it marginally easier for me to get the business audiences I > deal with to act right if "composable" services is something I can > point > to when or if we get people insisting on something really dumb, like > "Point-to-Point" is the only distribution protocol that counts," or > "we > can use the rules for RSS Feeds for all distribution." I suppose its > not > impossible, but I don't really expect to see it. > > BTW, I don't read the sentence to mean that ALL independent services > MUST also be composable. It means " a network of independent services > and/or composable services." I think independent composable services > is > almost a contradiction of terms or almost an oxymoron. > > Cheers, > Rex > > Duane Nickull wrote: >> My take on this: >> >> http://technoracle.blogspot.com/2007/09/soa-anti-patterns-service-composition.html >> >> D >> >> >> On 9/25/09 1:21 PM, "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com> wrote: >> >> I do not have any strong objections. >> >> 'Composable' means to me that the service may be composed; the >> question is - composed by what and how this corresponds to >> 'independent'? 'Composite' or 'aggregate' (as Ken pointed once) is >> the service, which is composed already by other services, which >> comprises other services, i.e. it is not independent. This is what >> I tried to "EmFasis" :-) >> >> You, folks, decide. >> >> - Michael >> >> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com> >>> To: "Lublinsky, Boris" <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, "Mike >> Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:01:34 -0500 >>> >>> >>> Mike, I like the sentence. Boris, I think that "composable >> services" is >>> the correct term. I've heard many "experts" and "gurus" use the >>> term >>> and concept since at least 2003 and seems to me to put the >> "EmFasis on >>> the rite Silobbal", as my dad would say. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com] >>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:50 PM >>> To: Mike Poulin; Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris; >>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>> >>> Composable? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:27 PM >>> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; Lublinsky, Boris; >>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>> >>> Bob, >>> this is the phrase: >>> >>> From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is a network of >>> independent services, machines, the people who operate, affect, >> use and >>> govern those services as well as ... >>> >>> >>> I propose to say: "...a network of independent and composite >> services, >>> machines, the..." >>> >>> - Michael >>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com> >>>> To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, "Lublinsky, Boris" >>> <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:40:28 -0500 >>>> >>>> >>>> There was one sentence that you sent that I could not make head or >>> tail >>>> of as I noted. Otherwise, I thought I had incorporated all of your >>>> comments >>>> >>>> Bob >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:31 PM >>>> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; Lublinsky, Boris; >>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>> >>>> I am afraid, I am lost. I do not see some of the crucial changes I >>>> advocated for and you agreed to accommodate: >>>> >>>> >>>> "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood in >>>> terms of its support of business services." >>>> - MP - great! >>>> >>>> "Business services provide business functionality in pursuit of >>> business >>>> outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts that facilitate >>>> connectivity of functional units to realize and support the >> business >>>> services." >>>> - MP - my proposal: 'Business services provide business >> functionality >>> in >>>> pursuit of the business outcome; while IT artifacts facilitate >>>> connectivity of functional units to realize and support the >> business >>>> services.' >>>> >>>> "Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but is of >>> both >>>> worlds." >>>> - MP - great! You commented: 'This doesn't make sense to me. It >> is not >>>> connected to SOA in anyway' but left the statement. I am for having >>> this >>>> statement as it is (it is not my text but very right one IMO) >>>> >>>> "Neither Business nor IT completely own, govern, and manage >> this SOA >>>> Ecosystem. The SOA Ecosystem must accommodate both sets of concerns >>> for >>>> to fulfill its purpose and potential." >>>> - MP - great! >>>> >>>> "Business needs to drive the development of services delivered >> through >>>> processes and its supporting IT, which provides the capability that >>>> satisfies those needs. This is the business value of SOA." >>>> - MP - development of services is not necessary delivered through >>>> processes and supporting IT. This is why my proposal is: >>>> 'Business needs to drive the development of services, which >> provides >>>> the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business >> value >>> of >>>> SOA.' >>>> or >>>> 'Business needs to drive the development of services delivered >>> through >>>> Business and IT, which provides the capability that satisfies those >>>> needs. This is the business value of SOA.' >>>> >>>> (i.e. none Business or IT , or both; SOA is in between them) >>>> >>>> >>>> Thus, my variant of the text looks like this: >>>> >>>> The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be understood in >>> terms >>>> of its support of business services. Business services provide >>> business >>>> functionality in pursuit of the business outcome; while IT >> artifacts >>>> facilitate connectivity of functional units to realize and >> support the >>>> business services. Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly >>>> Business, but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely >>> own, >>>> govern, and manage this SOA Ecosystem. The SOA Ecosystem must >>>> accommodate both sets of concerns for to fulfill its purpose and >>>> potential. Business needs to drive the development of services, >> which >>>> provides the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the >>> business >>>> value of SOA. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Michael >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com> >>>>> To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, "Lublinsky, Boris" >>>> <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:56:23 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Try this. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:31 AM >>>>> To: Lublinsky, Boris; Mike Poulin; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Boris has reminded me one thing: in the paragraph following >> the two >>>>> paragraphs we are discussing now we say something like 'SOA is a >>>> network >>>>> of independent services...' I would modify this phrase a bit >> saying >>>>> something like 'SOA is a network of independent and composite >>>>> services...' >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, I did not mention this earlier. >>>>> >>>>> This is all what I wanted to say about SOA and Buz. >>>>> >>>>> - Michael >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Lublinsky, Boris" >>>>> To: "Mike Poulin" , soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:04:35 -0500 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I tend to agree with Mike/jeff >>>>> See below >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>>> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 5:15 AM >>>>> To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>> Importance: High >>>>> >>>>> I believe service orientation has the enormous potential to >> become >>> the >>>>> basic business operational model and SOA will be the basis of the >>>>> Business Architecture. >>>>> >>>>> Since we do not have time for this discussion now, let's >> return to >>> our >>>>> text. >>>>> >>>>> B.L. Moreover, as I re read the text I am realizing more and more >>> that >>>>> this is not so much about SOA but mostly about ESB. I am of >> course >>>> over >>>>> simplifying, but hopefully you got the jest. We managed to >> leap frog >>>>> business architecture and servicizing the enterprise and jump >>> directly >>>>> into the issues of service interaction - ecosystem. This is fine, >>> but >>>>> who is going to live in this wonderful ecosystem. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The only thing I hope to set in the RA standard is an open >> door to >>> the >>>>> Business opportunity of SOA instead of locking it in IT. >>>>> >>>>> This means I vote for enough 'ambiguity' in the text that would >>> allow >>>>> anybody to go with SOA in both - technical and business - >>> directions, >>>> if >>>>> needed. >>>>> >>>>> B.L. Fair enough. Lets create the door, but may be, just may >> be open >>>> it >>>>> up slightly for the next review. This is why I think, the >> text under >>>>> discussion, does not belong in the ecosystem, but rather >> above it. >>> We >>>>> talk about business/IT alignment and then define ecosystem >>>>> >>>>> The following is my modifications to the text that together >> aim only >>>> one >>>>> statement: "SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but >> is of >>>> both >>>>> worlds." Particularly: >>>>> >>>>> a) I agree in full with: >>>>> < >>>>> components and subsystems. They must be understood within their >>>> context >>>>> or environment; particularly, when there are many >> interactions among >>>> the >>>>> parts. For example, a biological ecosystem is a self-sustaining >>>>> association of plants, animals, and the physical environment in >>> which >>>>> they live. Understanding an ecosystem often requires this >> holistic >>>>> perspective of the system and its environment rather than one >>> focusing >>>>> on the system's individual parts.>> >>>>> >>>>> b) I DISagree with << The SOA Ecosystem described in this >> document >>>> must >>>>> be understood in terms of its support of business services, >> which is >>>> its >>>>> environment.>> >>>>> My proposal is this: >>>>> << The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be >> understood >>> in >>>>> terms of its support of business services.>> >>>>> >>>>> B.L. See comment above >>>>> >>>>> c) I DISagree with << Business services provide business >>> functionality >>>>> in pursuit of the business outcome; while SOA services provide IT >>>>> artifacts that facilitate connectivity of functional units to >>> realize >>>>> and support the business services. Therefore, SOA is neither >> wholly >>> IT >>>>> nor wholly Business, but is of both worlds. >> >>>>> My proposal is this: >>>>> < >>>>> outcome, together with its technical realization and support >>> provided >>>> by >>>>> Information Technology. Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor >>> wholly >>>>> Business, but is of both worlds.>> >>>>> >>>>> B.L. How about: >>>>> << SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but is of both >>>> worlds. >>>>> Without involvement of the business, defining service >> functionality >>>>> based on the enterprise business model and aligned with the >>> enterprise >>>>> business processes, SOA can't fulfill the promise of business/IT >>>>> alignment and support for flexible, process-driven enterprise. >>> Without >>>>> involvement of IT, implementing SOA ecosystem, supporting >> flexible >>>>> service deployment, interactions, monitoring and management SOA >>> can't >>>>> fulfill the promise of scalable, maintainable IT.>> >>>>> >>>>> d) I DISagree with << Business needs drive the development of >>> services >>>>> delivered through IT, which provides the capability that >> satisfies >>>> those >>>>> needs. This is the business value of SOA.>> >>>>> My proposal is: >>>>> << Business needs to drive the development of services, which >>> provides >>>>> the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business >>> value >>>> of >>>>> SOA.>> >>>>> or >>>>> << Business needs to drive the development of services delivered >>>> through >>>>> Business and IT, which provides the capability that satisfies >> those >>>>> needs. This is the business value of SOA.>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> - Michael >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" To: "Mike Poulin" , "Lublinsky, >>>> Boris" >>>>> , rexb@starbourne.com >>>>>> Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>>>> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:30:41 -0500 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> We are trying to get to the same concept, but really what >> is being >>>>>> discussed is a cultural paradigm shift. In my view, the >> execution >>>>>> context is the technical context within which the service >>> components >>>>>> exist and within in which they are executed as enablers and >>> support >>>>> for >>>>>> the process. The service components are the parts and >>> subassemblies. >>>>>> The process flow, which is part of the execution context, as >>> defined >>>>> by >>>>>> the orchestration or choreography (both of which have business >>> rules >>>>>> engines to ensure that policies/standards/business >> rules/etc. are >>>>>> followed). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Business process modeling as instantiated by the assembled >> of the >>>> SOA >>>>>> service components, with the associated business rule, >> links the >>>>> system >>>>>> to the business processes. Provided that the business processes >>>> serve >>>>>> the goals or objectives or the business (that is provides >> value to >>>> the >>>>>> business) then the tools as instantiated in the SOA service >>>> multiplies >>>>>> the effectiveness of the process. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The cultural shift involves the fact that when business >> challenges >>>> or >>>>>> opportunities arise, the business processes and SOA supporting >>>>> services >>>>>> can meet those challenge because SOA enable agile systems. I >>> define >>>>>> agility as "successful response to unexpected challenges and >>>>>> opportunities." BTW, this is the definition of the Agility >> Forum >>>>> (circa >>>>>> 1990) associated with Lehigh University (that is Nagel and his >>> group >>>>>> that wrote the book on the agile enterprise). Currently, the >>>>> monolithic >>>>>> architecture of most ERP-like systems do not allow agility, >> while >>>>>> functional architecture place emphasis on optimizing for the >>>> function; >>>>>> creating silos. There is an axiom in Systems Engineering that >>>>>> optimizing the subsystems, sub-optimizes the system. SOA >> enables >>>> both >>>>>> optimization and agility of the system, but requires mapping of >>> the >>>>>> system to the organization's processes as the price >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I could and have said a great deal more, but I think that is >>> enough. >>>>>> The linkage is there for anyone to get the maximum value out of >>> the >>>>> SOA >>>>>> and both the business processes and the composite applications >>>>> (process >>>>>> assembled service components???) or whatever operating in the >>>>> execution >>>>>> context, must enable and support the processes. As the >> processes >>>>> change >>>>>> in response to challenges and opportunities, both the processes >>> and >>>>> the >>>>>> composite application must respond quickly and >> successfully. This >>> is >>>>>> not the way it is done now, and that is the cultural change >> that >>> is >>>>>> needed. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 PM >>>>>> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris; >> rexb@starbourne.com >>>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >> business] >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Robert, >>>>>> >>>>>> as we know SOA defines Execution Context. Since we never >> defined >>>> what >>>>> it >>>>>> includes, I suggest (and promote this opinion) that EC includes >>>>> Business >>>>>> EC and Technical EC. Business services cannot be 'the >> environment >>> of >>>>> the >>>>>> SOA Ecosystem' because it is included into SOA. Business EC >>> defines >>>>>> business execution policies and Technical EC defines technical >>>>> execution >>>>>> policies. SOA Ecosystem comprises both business and technical >>>> realms. >>>>>> >>>>>> Phrase "while SOA services provide IT artifacts that facilitate >>>>>> connectivity of functional units to realize and support the >>> business >>>>>> services."" has a problem because SOA service does not >> necessary >>>>>> "facilitate connectivity of functional units". For instance,a >>>>>> self-contained stand-alone business technical service >> realises its >>>> own >>>>>> business function or feature w/o joining with other "functional >>>>> units". >>>>>> Plus, SOA Service may or may not contain any IT artefacts. Time >>> when >>>>> SOA >>>>>> was considered a pure technical thing is gone (and for good). >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree with you on "The value of IT is the same as any other >>> tool". >>>>>> This is why I think that statement " Business needs drive the >>>>>> development of services delivered through IT, which >> provides the >>>>>> capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business >> value >>> of >>>>>> SOA" requires corrections. Development of services is not >>> necessary >>>>>> delivered through IT, it may be purely manual business >> service and >>>>> many >>>>>> services of such nature exist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Based on my discussion in several Business Architecture >> groups on >>>> the >>>>>> Web, any business process in Business may be defined as >> business >>>>> service >>>>>> with or without technical component. Implementation of the >>> business >>>>>> service, as we know, is not that important for service-oriented >>>>>> Architecture. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we state that SOA positions BETWEEN Business and IT, we >> MAY NOT >>>>>> attribute it to IT only and confront it with the business >> service. >>>>> This >>>>>> is illogical. >>>>>> >>>>>> - Michael >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" >>>>>> To: "Lublinsky, Boris" , rexb@starbourne.com >>>>>> Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , mpoulin@usa.com, >>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >> business] >>>>>> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:19:49 -0500 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> See below >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com] >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:58 AM >>>>>> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); rexb@starbourne.com; >> Lublinsky, Boris >>>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >> business] >>>>>> >>>>>> I have no idea what this means: >>>>>> >>>>>> "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be >> understood >>> in >>>>>> terms of its support of business services, which is its >>>> environment." >>>>>> >>>>>> What is which environment? >>>>>> Business services are the environment of the SOA Ecosystem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also: >>>>>> " Business services provide business functionality in >> pursuit of >>>>>> business outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts that >>>>>> facilitate connectivity of functional units to realize and >> support >>>> the >>>>>> business services." >>>>>> >>>>>> SOA services is a complete misnomer. Infrastructure I can >> buy, but >>>> SOA >>>>>> services? >>>>>> I disagree with that. The infrastructure provides nothing >> except >>> an >>>>>> operating context. Only when SOA Service (which in my >>> understanding >>>> is >>>>>> a composite application with contractual obligations) >> provide any >>>>> value >>>>>> to the customer. >>>>>> >>>>>> And finally: >>>>>> " Business needs drive the development of services delivered >>> through >>>>> IT, >>>>>> which provides the capability that satisfies those needs. >> This is >>>> the >>>>>> business value of SOA." >>>>>> >>>>>> This has several problems: >>>>>> 1. Business is concerned only with business services and drives >>>> their >>>>>> design, not development 2. What is the business value? What >> does >>>> this >>>>>> points to? >>>>>> >>>>>> My understanding of the term development is that it includes >>> design, >>>>> but >>>>>> if you want to change it...The value of IT is the same as any >>> other >>>>>> tool, to multiple the value of the process. >>>>>> Adam Smith pointed this out in Chapter 1 of Book 1 of the >> Wealth >>> of >>>>>> Nations. This is a point lost on IT as this comment >> demonstrates. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we are digressing. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope not. >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com] >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:46 AM >>>>>> To: rexb@starbourne.com; Lublinsky, Boris >>>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >> business] >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi: >>>>>> >>>>>> Please try this edit. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:34 AM >>>>>> To: Lublinsky, Boris >>>>>> Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >>>>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >> business] >>>>>> >>>>>> Very minor grammar correction, Boris, >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm just a nit picker. >>>>>> >>>>>> ;) >>>>>> Rex >>>>>> >>>>>> Lublinsky, Boris wrote: >>>>>>> I haven't seen people discussing my grammar so much >> lately. I am >>>>> doing >>>>>> >>>>>>> something wrong sorry. >>>>>>> I am fine with managing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:07 AM >>>>>>> To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) >>>>>>> Cc: Lublinsky, Boris; Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; > > > >>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >> business] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Folks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm being technically challenged at the moment with remote >>>>>> participation >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in overlapping meetings the latter of which isn't starting >>>>> and > > the former of which appears to have ended early while I >>>>> dropped > > off to attend the latter.Sheseh! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here's how I would correct Boris's grammar with one >>>>> word-substitution: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> don't want the concept of "orchestration" being confused with >>> the >>>>> use >>>>>> of >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "orchestrating" so I am changing that to "managing" which we >>> don't >>>>>> spend >>>>>>> >>>>>>> much attention on in the RAF yet .(I just want to avoid >> anyone >>>>> asking >>>>>> if >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we mean that "all business services must be delivered via >>>>>>> orchestration."): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Business drives the definition of business services aligned >>>>>> with > enterprise business functionality and business >>>> processes, > > > managing execution of these services, while IT >>>> defines > > > infrastructure services, >>>>>> >>>>>>> providing support across a wide range of business services >>>>> and > > implements both types of services. Such collaboration > >>>> allows > > stronger communications between both, by creating > >>>> one-to-one > > mapping between business and IT artifacts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regardless, since it is clear that Bob did not actually >>>> pick > up > > Boris's additions and so didn't drop them, and Ken >>>> had one > more > > addition he was considering, could we ask Ken >>>> to correct > > Boris's > grammar, fold in Bob's slight rewording >>>> and add his > > piece? Then, > perhaps Jeff and/or Jim could make >>>> the crisp > > differentiation > between business services and SOA >>>> services or > > between business > services and IT >>>>>> >>>>>>> services >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Rex >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ellinger, Robert S (IS) wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Didn't intend to drop Boris's additions...must of missed > >>>> them. > I >> thought we were to start from where you left off, so >>>>> that is > >> what I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> did. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sorry Boris...Perhaps we were working concurrently and the >>>> material >>>>>> crossed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Bob >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:10 AM >>>>>>>> To: Lublinsky, Boris >>>>>>>> Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >>>>>>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday >> [was: >>>>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >>> business] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My task was to get the work rolling. I have minor >> quibbles with >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> correct >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> English grammar in Boris's additions, and I agree with >>>> Jeff > > that >> the distinction between "business service' and >>>> "SOA > > service" >> needs to be made. In general I think simpler >>>> is > > better, but as >> long as the grammar is corrected, I'd be >>>> fine > > with Boris's >> additions. I don't have any problems >>>> with Bob's > > minor rewording, >> but i don't see why he dropped >>>> Boris's > > additions.. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'll look at it again in the morning. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Rex >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lublinsky, Boris wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You through away all changes that were suggested after this >>>>> initial >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> one? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) >> [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:41 PM >>>>>>>>> To: rexb@starbourne.com >>>>>>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday >> [was: >>>>>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >>> business] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd recommend some minor rewording... -----Original >>> Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:16 PM >>>>>>>>> To: rexb@starbourne.com >>>>>>>>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; >>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday >> [was: >>>>>>>>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >>> business] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> First pass at the Section 1.2 as an additional paragraph >>>>>> after >>> the first paragraph. I include the first paragraph >>>> and > > the >>> start of the current second paragraph here for >>>> the > > context: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1.2 Service Oriented Archtecture - An Ecosystem Perspective >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Many systems cannot be understood by a simple decomposition >>> into >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> parts >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and subsystems -- in particular when there are many >>> > >>>>> interactions between the parts. For example, a biological >>> > >>>>> ecosystem is a self-sustaining association of plants, animals, >>>>>>>>> and the hysical environment in which they live. >>>> Undestanding > > an >>> ecosystem often requires a holistic >>>> perspective rather > > than one >>> focusing on the >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> system's individual parts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies the >>>>>>>>> boundary between Business and IT. It is neither wholly IT >>>>> nor >>> > wholly Business, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT >> completely own, >>>>>> govern >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of concerns must >>>>> be > >>> accommodated for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its > >>>> purposes. > >>> Business >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> needs drive the development of services delivered through >>>>> IT, > >>> providing the capability that satisfies those needs. >>>>> This is > >>> the business value of SOA. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is a > >>>> network > of >>> independent services, machines, the people who > >>>> operate, > affect, >>> use and govern those services as well as > >>>> ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Rex >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Rex Brooks wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Ken, Everyone, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I believe that the email you are looking for is your >> reply to >>>>>> Frank: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm-ra/email/ >>> archives >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> / >>>>>>>>>> 200906/msg00012.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is what Frank Wrote Jun 14, 2009, at 7:12 PM: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "I sympathize with the sentiment behind this. We have >>>>>>>>>> consistently identified SOA as being at the boundary >>>> between > >>>> > business and IT. It >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> neither wholly IT nor wholly business but is of both >> worlds. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That represents potentially one of SOA's greatest >>>> opportunities; >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the source of its weaknesses: neither business nor IT can >>>>>> completely >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> own/grok SOA. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Frank" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The email referenced above contains the most or all of the >>>> thread >>>>>> "Are >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> we being ignored?" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure we would help ourselves if we say more than >>>>>> "The >>>> SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies >>>> the > > boundary >>>> between Business and IT. It is neither >>>> wholly IT > > nor wholly >>>> Business, but is >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely own, >>>>>> govern >>>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of >>>> concerns > > MUST be >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> accommodated >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its purposes." >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Rex >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Laskey, Ken wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is a reminder that this week we are scheduled to >>> discuss >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> adding >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the text on the overlap of SOA and business. Below is >> text >>>>>> suggested >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> by Michael Poulin and there is another email from >> Boris with >>> a >>>>> lot >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> idea that would need to be condensed and >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> added/substituted/combined. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Let's get the discussion far enough along that we can >> bring >>>> this >>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> (close to) closure by the end of Wednesday's call. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I remember there was an email where Frank wrote something >>> very >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> crisp >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> on this subject that I replied was exactly what we >> needed to >>>>> say. >>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I have no idea when that email thread >>> occurred. >>>>> If >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> someone could find it, I think it would be a good >>> contribution >>>>> to >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Back to Mike's suggested text, two immediate things >> come to >>>>> mind. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. Section 1.4 is a discussion of the views and this >> is not >>> a >>>>> view >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> be added as 1.4.4. I think it fits after section 1.2, >>> possibly >>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> another short section. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. It is not obvious to me what the phrase "the > >>>> similarity > of >>>>> the principles of the Value Networks > >>>> business model" > means. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Ken >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> ------ >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Kenneth Laskey >>>>>>>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>>>>>>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 703-983-1379 >>>>>>>>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] Sent: > >>>>>>>>>> Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:31 AM >>>>>>>>>>> To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >> between IT >>>> and >>>>>> business >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi Folks, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I join Francis and Boris in suggestion that SOA RA's >>>>> Introduction >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> would benefit from adding a couple of paragraphs on the >>>>>>>>>>> business aspects of SOA positioned across Business and >>>> IT. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> In the previous message I composed a few words for a >> small >>>>> section >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> this topic and propose to discuss them as an initial >> draft >>>>> during >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> next (or following) Telecom. Proposed text may be >> found in >>> the >>>>>> middle >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of this message chain. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Any suggestions? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Michael >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: todos for PR2 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>> Date: >>>> 8 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sep >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2009 16:21:26 -0000 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business" is >>> what >>>> I >>>>>> write >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> a lot for last few months. So, let me propose a >> strawman for >>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> text: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1.4.4 Business Value of the Service Oriented Architecture >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> A Service Oriented Architecture realizes principles >> of the >>>>> concept >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> service orientation in the sphere of architecture. The >>>>>> architecture >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> in the organisation comprises both business >>>> architecture > > and >>>>> technical architecture of the systems >>>> [ref. to TOGAF > > 9.0]. >>>>> While SOA-based systems address >>>> aspects of the > > technical >>>>> architecture, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> similarity of the principles of the Value Networks >> business >>>>> model >>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> SOA allows us to see SOA as a conceptual bridge between >>>>>>>>>>> corporate Business and IT. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Noticed similarity opens up new possibilities for >> Business >>> and >>>>> IT >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> construct service-oriented customer-centric convergent >>>> solutions >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> business problems. Service orientation enables > >>>> operational > >>>>> and technical flexibility, which contributes >>>>> to business > >>>>> efficiency the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> great deal. The Service Orientation concept has the > > >>>> potential >>>>> not only to align IT with Business, but also to > >>>>> align the >>>>> entire >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> company >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> with the market dynamics. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If the ideas in this writing are acceptable, I will >> work on >>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wording. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - Michael Poulin >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From: Francis McCabe To: >> "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org RA" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:24:08 -0700 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. As Boris alluded to, I think that a paragraph or two >>>>> in > >>>>> the introduction positioning SOA on the cusp between >>>>> IT and > >>>>> business could be very useful. It is also pretty >>>>> faithful > to >>>>> the RAF! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 2. The concept of interaction in the RM referred > > >>>> *everything* >>>>> involved in interacting with services. For the >>>>>> RA we have to >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> unpack >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> that some. This is the foundation for the multi-leveled >>>> concept >>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> joint action. This should go in Section 3.1. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 3. I think that Danny's security diagram should be > >>>> updated > >>>>> and incorporated. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 4. The trust and willingness stuff should go in. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 5. It would be good if we could go through the text >> bolding >>>>>> defined >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> concepts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> ----------- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> [Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date >> Next] -- >>>>> [Date >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Rex Brooks >>>>>>>>> President, CEO >>>>>>>>> Starbourne Communications Design >>>>>>>>> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >>>>>>>>> Berkeley, CA 94702 >>>>>>>>> Tel: 510-898-0670 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> - To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the >>>>>> OASIS >>> TC that generates this mail. 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