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Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa-rm-ra]p ositioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]


I certainly agree that it is important. I think I've made it clear I 
prefer it, just not enough to strong oppose going forward without it. Be 
that as it may, I don't think we have enough consensus yet.

Cheers,
Rex

Lublinsky, Boris wrote:
> Well,Call it what you want, but this notion should be there. I do not think that people are as diligent as Duane and really will distinguish composability and aggregation. I think composability is more common term, but English is my second language.
> The other point that I was try to make in my earlier email is an attempt to define what exactly business and IT are bringing to SOA and I think that this is important
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
> Sent: Fri 9/25/2009 7:10 PM
> To: Duane Nickull
> Cc: Lublinsky, Boris; Mike Poulin; Ellinger, Robert S (IS); soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa-rm-ra] p ositioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>
>
>
> Now that I would object to including as I have already because it is
> likely to lead our audience to think that only orchestration is suitable
> for SOA. You caught my point about the press and pundit wrt to
> composite/composable. Again, you are correct about the part-whole
> relationship to reusability, and that's what I care about. I need both
> orchestration and choreography, but the world out there is incredibly
> literal-minded and they want rules, which kinda absolves them of the
> need to think things through for themselves. They'd be happier with a
> cookbook, but regardless of what we present in the final product, there
> will be many who will want to use it as cookbook. They are quite like
> those who only understand hammers, so everything else is a nail
>
> Cheers,
> Rex
>
> Duane Nickull wrote:
>   
>> Via Aggregation. Aggregation is a UML pattern whereby the parts are
>> "used" by the whole. If the whole does not exist, the parts can exist
>> which is necessary for re-use. Composition (by contrast) is a UML
>> pattern whereby the parts are "part of" the whole, hence their
>> lifecycle is tied to the lifecycle of the whole. When the whole ceases
>> to exist, so do the parts, hence making "reuse" not possible.
>>
>> I think aggregation is a better term, however the press and others
>> have already gone with "service composition" as a buzzword. Service
>> Orchestration is just as good as aggregation IMO.
>>
>> Duane
>>
>>
>>
>> On 9/25/09 2:50 PM, "Lublinsky, Boris" <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com> wrote:
>>
>>     If the services are not composable, then how are they better
>>     compared to existing applications
>>
>>     --- original message ---
>>     From: "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com>
>>     Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>     Date: September 25, 2009
>>     Time: 4:41:26 PM
>>
>>     Duane, I'm picturing you tugging on Superman's cape, while
>>     spittin' into
>>     the wind, tilting at windmills and messin' with Bad Bad LeRoy Brown,
>>     while sliding into heaven sideways, brew in hand singing, "What a
>>     Ride!"
>>
>>     You're right, and so is Frank, and I definitely prefer "aggregate-able
>>     or capable of being included in various types of aggregations,"...
>>
>>     but I think the boat already left, folks. We don't have to catch
>>     up with
>>     it nor need we catch the next one. It will go as it will.
>>
>>     I personally don't have strong enough feelings about it to be road
>>     kill
>>     for it or against it. I happen to be involved in a set of SOA services
>>     that absolutely MUST be composable, but I am satisfied that they
>>     will be
>>     regardless of how this sentence in theSOA-RAF introduction is worded.
>>
>>     It makes it marginally easier for me to get the business audiences I
>>     deal with to act right if "composable" services is something I can
>>     point
>>     to when or if we get people insisting on something really dumb, like
>>     "Point-to-Point" is the only distribution protocol that counts,"
>>     or "we
>>     can use the rules for RSS Feeds for all distribution." I suppose
>>     its not
>>     impossible, but I don't really expect to see it.
>>
>>     BTW, I don't read the sentence to mean that ALL independent services
>>     MUST also be composable. It means " a network of independent services
>>     and/or composable services." I think independent composable
>>     services is
>>     almost a contradiction of terms or almost an oxymoron.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>     Rex
>>
>>     Duane Nickull wrote:
>>     > My take on this:
>>     >
>>     > http://technoracle.blogspot.com/2007/09/soa-anti-patterns-service-composition.html
>>     >
>>     > D
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > On 9/25/09 1:21 PM, "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com> wrote:
>>     >
>>     > I do not have any strong objections.
>>     >
>>     > 'Composable' means to me that the service may be composed; the
>>     > question is - composed by what and how this corresponds to
>>     > 'independent'? 'Composite' or 'aggregate' (as Ken pointed once) is
>>     > the service, which is composed already by other services, which
>>     > comprises other services, i.e. it is not independent. This is what
>>     > I tried to "EmFasis" :-)
>>     >
>>     > You, folks, decide.
>>     >
>>     > - Michael
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > > ----- Original Message -----
>>     > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com>
>>     > > To: "Lublinsky, Boris" <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, "Mike
>>     > Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>     > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:01:34 -0500
>>     > >
>>     > >
>>     > > Mike, I like the sentence. Boris, I think that "composable
>>     > services" is
>>     > > the correct term. I've heard many "experts" and "gurus" use the
>>     term
>>     > > and concept since at least 2003 and seems to me to put the
>>     > "EmFasis on
>>     > > the rite Silobbal", as my dad would say.
>>     > >
>>     > > -----Original Message-----
>>     > > From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com]
>>     > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 3:50 PM
>>     > > To: Mike Poulin; Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris;
>>     > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>     > >
>>     > > Composable?
>>     > >
>>     > > -----Original Message-----
>>     > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
>>     > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:27 PM
>>     > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; Lublinsky, Boris;
>>     > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>     > >
>>     > > Bob,
>>     > > this is the phrase:
>>     > >
>>     > > From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is a network of
>>     > > independent services, machines, the people who operate, affect,
>>     > use and
>>     > > govern those services as well as ...
>>     > >
>>     > >
>>     > > I propose to say: "...a network of independent and composite
>>     > services,
>>     > > machines, the..."
>>     > >
>>     > > - Michael
>>     > >
>>     > > > ----- Original Message -----
>>     > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com>
>>     > > > To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, "Lublinsky, Boris"
>>     > > <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>     > > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:40:28 -0500
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > > There was one sentence that you sent that I could not make
>>     head or
>>     > > tail
>>     > > > of as I noted. Otherwise, I thought I had incorporated all of
>>     your
>>     > > > comments
>>     > > >
>>     > > > Bob
>>     > > >
>>     > > > -----Original Message-----
>>     > > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
>>     > > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:31 PM
>>     > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; Lublinsky, Boris;
>>     > > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>     > > >
>>     > > > I am afraid, I am lost. I do not see some of the crucial
>>     changes I
>>     > > > advocated for and you agreed to accommodate:
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > > "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be
>>     understood in
>>     > > > terms of its support of business services."
>>     > > > - MP - great!
>>     > > >
>>     > > > "Business services provide business functionality in pursuit of
>>     > > business
>>     > > > outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts that facilitate
>>     > > > connectivity of functional units to realize and support the
>>     > business
>>     > > > services."
>>     > > > - MP - my proposal: 'Business services provide business
>>     > functionality
>>     > > in
>>     > > > pursuit of the business outcome; while IT artifacts facilitate
>>     > > > connectivity of functional units to realize and support the
>>     > business
>>     > > > services.'
>>     > > >
>>     > > > "Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but
>>     is of
>>     > > both
>>     > > > worlds."
>>     > > > - MP - great! You commented: 'This doesn't make sense to me. It
>>     > is not
>>     > > > connected to SOA in anyway' but left the statement. I am for
>>     having
>>     > > this
>>     > > > statement as it is (it is not my text but very right one IMO)
>>     > > >
>>     > > > "Neither Business nor IT completely own, govern, and manage
>>     > this SOA
>>     > > > Ecosystem. The SOA Ecosystem must accommodate both sets of
>>     concerns
>>     > > for
>>     > > > to fulfill its purpose and potential."
>>     > > > - MP - great!
>>     > > >
>>     > > > "Business needs to drive the development of services delivered
>>     > through
>>     > > > processes and its supporting IT, which provides the
>>     capability that
>>     > > > satisfies those needs. This is the business value of SOA."
>>     > > > - MP - development of services is not necessary delivered through
>>     > > > processes and supporting IT. This is why my proposal is:
>>     > > > 'Business needs to drive the development of services, which
>>     > provides
>>     > > > the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business
>>     > value
>>     > > of
>>     > > > SOA.'
>>     > > > or
>>     > > > 'Business needs to drive the development of services delivered
>>     > > through
>>     > > > Business and IT, which provides the capability that satisfies
>>     those
>>     > > > needs. This is the business value of SOA.'
>>     > > >
>>     > > > (i.e. none Business or IT , or both; SOA is in between them)
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > > Thus, my variant of the text looks like this:
>>     > > >
>>     > > > The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be
>>     understood in
>>     > > terms
>>     > > > of its support of business services. Business services provide
>>     > > business
>>     > > > functionality in pursuit of the business outcome; while IT
>>     > artifacts
>>     > > > facilitate connectivity of functional units to realize and
>>     > support the
>>     > > > business services. Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly
>>     > > > Business, but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT
>>     completely
>>     > > own,
>>     > > > govern, and manage this SOA Ecosystem. The SOA Ecosystem must
>>     > > > accommodate both sets of concerns for to fulfill its purpose and
>>     > > > potential. Business needs to drive the development of services,
>>     > which
>>     > > > provides the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the
>>     > > business
>>     > > > value of SOA.
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > > - Michael
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>>     > > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" <robert.ellinger@ngc.com>
>>     > > > > To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, "Lublinsky, Boris"
>>     > > > <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
>>     > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:56:23 -0500
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > Try this.
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > Bob
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
>>     > > > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:31 AM
>>     > > > > To: Lublinsky, Boris; Mike Poulin;
>>     soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     business]
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > Boris has reminded me one thing: in the paragraph following
>>     > the two
>>     > > > > paragraphs we are discussing now we say something like 'SOA
>>     is a
>>     > > > network
>>     > > > > of independent services...' I would modify this phrase a bit
>>     > saying
>>     > > > > something like 'SOA is a network of independent and composite
>>     > > > > services...'
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > Sorry, I did not mention this earlier.
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > This is all what I wanted to say about SOA and Buz.
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > - Michael
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>>     > > > > From: "Lublinsky, Boris"
>>     > > > > To: "Mike Poulin" , soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     business]
>>     > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:04:35 -0500
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > I tend to agree with Mike/jeff
>>     > > > > See below
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > -----Original Message-----
>>     > > > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
>>     > > > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 5:15 AM
>>     > > > > To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     business]
>>     > > > > Importance: High
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > I believe service orientation has the enormous potential to
>>     > become
>>     > > the
>>     > > > > basic business operational model and SOA will be the basis
>>     of the
>>     > > > > Business Architecture.
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > Since we do not have time for this discussion now, let's
>>     > return to
>>     > > our
>>     > > > > text.
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > B.L. Moreover, as I re read the text I am realizing more
>>     and more
>>     > > that
>>     > > > > this is not so much about SOA but mostly about ESB. I am of
>>     > course
>>     > > > over
>>     > > > > simplifying, but hopefully you got the jest. We managed to
>>     > leap frog
>>     > > > > business architecture and servicizing the enterprise and jump
>>     > > directly
>>     > > > > into the issues of service interaction - ecosystem. This is
>>     fine,
>>     > > but
>>     > > > > who is going to live in this wonderful ecosystem.
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > The only thing I hope to set in the RA standard is an open
>>     > door to
>>     > > the
>>     > > > > Business opportunity of SOA instead of locking it in IT.
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > This means I vote for enough 'ambiguity' in the text that would
>>     > > allow
>>     > > > > anybody to go with SOA in both - technical and business -
>>     > > directions,
>>     > > > if
>>     > > > > needed.
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > B.L. Fair enough. Lets create the door, but may be, just may
>>     > be open
>>     > > > it
>>     > > > > up slightly for the next review. This is why I think, the
>>     > text under
>>     > > > > discussion, does not belong in the ecosystem, but rather
>>     > above it.
>>     > > We
>>     > > > > talk about business/IT alignment and then define ecosystem
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > The following is my modifications to the text that together
>>     > aim only
>>     > > > one
>>     > > > > statement: "SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but
>>     > is of
>>     > > > both
>>     > > > > worlds." Particularly:
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > a) I agree in full with:
>>     > > > > <
>>     > > > > components and subsystems. They must be understood within their
>>     > > > context
>>     > > > > or environment; particularly, when there are many
>>     > interactions among
>>     > > > the
>>     > > > > parts. For example, a biological ecosystem is a self-sustaining
>>     > > > > association of plants, animals, and the physical environment in
>>     > > which
>>     > > > > they live. Understanding an ecosystem often requires this
>>     > holistic
>>     > > > > perspective of the system and its environment rather than one
>>     > > focusing
>>     > > > > on the system's individual parts.>>
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > b) I DISagree with << The SOA Ecosystem described in this
>>     > document
>>     > > > must
>>     > > > > be understood in terms of its support of business services,
>>     > which is
>>     > > > its
>>     > > > > environment.>>
>>     > > > > My proposal is this:
>>     > > > > << The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be
>>     > understood
>>     > > in
>>     > > > > terms of its support of business services.>>
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > B.L. See comment above
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > c) I DISagree with << Business services provide business
>>     > > functionality
>>     > > > > in pursuit of the business outcome; while SOA services
>>     provide IT
>>     > > > > artifacts that facilitate connectivity of functional units to
>>     > > realize
>>     > > > > and support the business services. Therefore, SOA is neither
>>     > wholly
>>     > > IT
>>     > > > > nor wholly Business, but is of both worlds. >>
>>     > > > > My proposal is this:
>>     > > > > <
>>     > > > > outcome, together with its technical realization and support
>>     > > provided
>>     > > > by
>>     > > > > Information Technology. Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor
>>     > > wholly
>>     > > > > Business, but is of both worlds.>>
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > B.L. How about:
>>     > > > > << SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly Business, but is of both
>>     > > > worlds.
>>     > > > > Without involvement of the business, defining service
>>     > functionality
>>     > > > > based on the enterprise business model and aligned with the
>>     > > enterprise
>>     > > > > business processes, SOA can't fulfill the promise of
>>     business/IT
>>     > > > > alignment and support for flexible, process-driven enterprise.
>>     > > Without
>>     > > > > involvement of IT, implementing SOA ecosystem, supporting
>>     > flexible
>>     > > > > service deployment, interactions, monitoring and management SOA
>>     > > can't
>>     > > > > fulfill the promise of scalable, maintainable IT.>>
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > d) I DISagree with << Business needs drive the development of
>>     > > services
>>     > > > > delivered through IT, which provides the capability that
>>     > satisfies
>>     > > > those
>>     > > > > needs. This is the business value of SOA.>>
>>     > > > > My proposal is:
>>     > > > > << Business needs to drive the development of services, which
>>     > > provides
>>     > > > > the capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business
>>     > > value
>>     > > > of
>>     > > > > SOA.>>
>>     > > > > or
>>     > > > > << Business needs to drive the development of services
>>     delivered
>>     > > > through
>>     > > > > Business and IT, which provides the capability that satisfies
>>     > those
>>     > > > > needs. This is the business value of SOA.>>
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > Regards,
>>     > > > > - Michael
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>>     > > > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" To: "Mike Poulin" ,
>>     "Lublinsky,
>>     > > > Boris"
>>     > > > > , rexb@starbourne.com
>>     > > > > > Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     business]
>>     > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:30:41 -0500
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Mike:
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > We are trying to get to the same concept, but really what
>>     > is being
>>     > > > > > discussed is a cultural paradigm shift. In my view, the
>>     > execution
>>     > > > > > context is the technical context within which the service
>>     > > components
>>     > > > > > exist and within in which they are executed as enablers and
>>     > > support
>>     > > > > for
>>     > > > > > the process. The service components are the parts and
>>     > > subassemblies.
>>     > > > > > The process flow, which is part of the execution context, as
>>     > > defined
>>     > > > > by
>>     > > > > > the orchestration or choreography (both of which have
>>     business
>>     > > rules
>>     > > > > > engines to ensure that policies/standards/business
>>     > rules/etc. are
>>     > > > > > followed).
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Business process modeling as instantiated by the assembled
>>     > of the
>>     > > > SOA
>>     > > > > > service components, with the associated business rule,
>>     > links the
>>     > > > > system
>>     > > > > > to the business processes. Provided that the business
>>     processes
>>     > > > serve
>>     > > > > > the goals or objectives or the business (that is provides
>>     > value to
>>     > > > the
>>     > > > > > business) then the tools as instantiated in the SOA service
>>     > > > multiplies
>>     > > > > > the effectiveness of the process.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > The cultural shift involves the fact that when business
>>     > challenges
>>     > > > or
>>     > > > > > opportunities arise, the business processes and SOA
>>     supporting
>>     > > > > services
>>     > > > > > can meet those challenge because SOA enable agile systems. I
>>     > > define
>>     > > > > > agility as "successful response to unexpected challenges and
>>     > > > > > opportunities." BTW, this is the definition of the Agility
>>     > Forum
>>     > > > > (circa
>>     > > > > > 1990) associated with Lehigh University (that is Nagel
>>     and his
>>     > > group
>>     > > > > > that wrote the book on the agile enterprise). Currently, the
>>     > > > > monolithic
>>     > > > > > architecture of most ERP-like systems do not allow agility,
>>     > while
>>     > > > > > functional architecture place emphasis on optimizing for the
>>     > > > function;
>>     > > > > > creating silos. There is an axiom in Systems Engineering that
>>     > > > > > optimizing the subsystems, sub-optimizes the system. SOA
>>     > enables
>>     > > > both
>>     > > > > > optimization and agility of the system, but requires
>>     mapping of
>>     > > the
>>     > > > > > system to the organization's processes as the price
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > I could and have said a great deal more, but I think that is
>>     > > enough.
>>     > > > > > The linkage is there for anyone to get the maximum value
>>     out of
>>     > > the
>>     > > > > SOA
>>     > > > > > and both the business processes and the composite
>>     applications
>>     > > > > (process
>>     > > > > > assembled service components???) or whatever operating in the
>>     > > > > execution
>>     > > > > > context, must enable and support the processes. As the
>>     > processes
>>     > > > > change
>>     > > > > > in response to challenges and opportunities, both the
>>     processes
>>     > > and
>>     > > > > the
>>     > > > > > composite application must respond quickly and
>>     > successfully. This
>>     > > is
>>     > > > > > not the way it is done now, and that is the cultural change
>>     > that
>>     > > is
>>     > > > > > needed.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
>>     > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 PM
>>     > > > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris;
>>     > rexb@starbourne.com
>>     > > > > > Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
>>     > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     > business]
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Robert,
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > as we know SOA defines Execution Context. Since we never
>>     > defined
>>     > > > what
>>     > > > > it
>>     > > > > > includes, I suggest (and promote this opinion) that EC
>>     includes
>>     > > > > Business
>>     > > > > > EC and Technical EC. Business services cannot be 'the
>>     > environment
>>     > > of
>>     > > > > the
>>     > > > > > SOA Ecosystem' because it is included into SOA. Business EC
>>     > > defines
>>     > > > > > business execution policies and Technical EC defines
>>     technical
>>     > > > > execution
>>     > > > > > policies. SOA Ecosystem comprises both business and technical
>>     > > > realms.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Phrase "while SOA services provide IT artifacts that
>>     facilitate
>>     > > > > > connectivity of functional units to realize and support the
>>     > > business
>>     > > > > > services."" has a problem because SOA service does not
>>     > necessary
>>     > > > > > "facilitate connectivity of functional units". For instance,a
>>     > > > > > self-contained stand-alone business technical service
>>     > realises its
>>     > > > own
>>     > > > > > business function or feature w/o joining with other
>>     "functional
>>     > > > > units".
>>     > > > > > Plus, SOA Service may or may not contain any IT
>>     artefacts. Time
>>     > > when
>>     > > > > SOA
>>     > > > > > was considered a pure technical thing is gone (and for good).
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > I agree with you on "The value of IT is the same as any other
>>     > > tool".
>>     > > > > > This is why I think that statement " Business needs drive the
>>     > > > > > development of services delivered through IT, which
>>     > provides the
>>     > > > > > capability that satisfies those needs. This is the business
>>     > value
>>     > > of
>>     > > > > > SOA" requires corrections. Development of services is not
>>     > > necessary
>>     > > > > > delivered through IT, it may be purely manual business
>>     > service and
>>     > > > > many
>>     > > > > > services of such nature exist.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Based on my discussion in several Business Architecture
>>     > groups on
>>     > > > the
>>     > > > > > Web, any business process in Business may be defined as
>>     > business
>>     > > > > service
>>     > > > > > with or without technical component. Implementation of the
>>     > > business
>>     > > > > > service, as we know, is not that important for
>>     service-oriented
>>     > > > > > Architecture.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > If we state that SOA positions BETWEEN Business and IT, we
>>     > MAY NOT
>>     > > > > > attribute it to IT only and confront it with the business
>>     > service.
>>     > > > > This
>>     > > > > > is illogical.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > - Michael
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
>>     > > > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)"
>>     > > > > > To: "Lublinsky, Boris" , rexb@starbourne.com
>>     > > > > > Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , mpoulin@usa.com,
>>     > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     > business]
>>     > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:19:49 -0500
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > See below
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>>     > > > > > From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com]
>>     > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:58 AM
>>     > > > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); rexb@starbourne.com;
>>     > Lublinsky, Boris
>>     > > > > > Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
>>     > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     > business]
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > I have no idea what this means:
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must be
>>     > understood
>>     > > in
>>     > > > > > terms of its support of business services, which is its
>>     > > > environment."
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > What is which environment?
>>     > > > > > Business services are the environment of the SOA Ecosystem.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Also:
>>     > > > > > " Business services provide business functionality in
>>     > pursuit of
>>     > > > > > business outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts
>>     that
>>     > > > > > facilitate connectivity of functional units to realize and
>>     > support
>>     > > > the
>>     > > > > > business services."
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > SOA services is a complete misnomer. Infrastructure I can
>>     > buy, but
>>     > > > SOA
>>     > > > > > services?
>>     > > > > > I disagree with that. The infrastructure provides nothing
>>     > except
>>     > > an
>>     > > > > > operating context. Only when SOA Service (which in my
>>     > > understanding
>>     > > > is
>>     > > > > > a composite application with contractual obligations)
>>     > provide any
>>     > > > > value
>>     > > > > > to the customer.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > And finally:
>>     > > > > > " Business needs drive the development of services delivered
>>     > > through
>>     > > > > IT,
>>     > > > > > which provides the capability that satisfies those needs.
>>     > This is
>>     > > > the
>>     > > > > > business value of SOA."
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > This has several problems:
>>     > > > > > 1. Business is concerned only with business services and
>>     drives
>>     > > > their
>>     > > > > > design, not development 2. What is the business value? What
>>     > does
>>     > > > this
>>     > > > > > points to?
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > My understanding of the term development is that it includes
>>     > > design,
>>     > > > > but
>>     > > > > > if you want to change it...The value of IT is the same as any
>>     > > other
>>     > > > > > tool, to multiple the value of the process.
>>     > > > > > Adam Smith pointed this out in Chapter 1 of Book 1 of the
>>     > Wealth
>>     > > of
>>     > > > > > Nations. This is a point lost on IT as this comment
>>     > demonstrates.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > I think we are digressing.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > I hope not.
>>     > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>>     > > > > > From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS)
>>     [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com]
>>     > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:46 AM
>>     > > > > > To: rexb@starbourne.com; Lublinsky, Boris
>>     > > > > > Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
>>     > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     > business]
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Hi:
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Please try this edit.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Bob
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>>     > > > > > From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>>     > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:34 AM
>>     > > > > > To: Lublinsky, Boris
>>     > > > > > Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
>>     > > > > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was:
>>     > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     > business]
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Very minor grammar correction, Boris,
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > I'm just a nit picker.
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > ;)
>>     > > > > > Rex
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > Lublinsky, Boris wrote:
>>     > > > > > > I haven't seen people discussing my grammar so much
>>     > lately. I am
>>     > > > > doing
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > something wrong sorry.
>>     > > > > > > I am fine with managing
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
>>     > > > > > > From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>>     > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:07 AM
>>     > > > > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS)
>>     > > > > > > Cc: Lublinsky, Boris; Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; > > >
>>     > > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday
>>     [was:
>>     > > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     > business]
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > Hi Folks,
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > I'm being technically challenged at the moment with remote
>>     > > > > > participation
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > in overlapping meetings the latter of which isn't starting
>>     > > > > and > > the former of which appears to have ended early while I
>>     > > > > dropped > > off to attend the latter.Sheseh!
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > Here's how I would correct Boris's grammar with one
>>     > > > > word-substitution:
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > I
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > don't want the concept of "orchestration" being
>>     confused with
>>     > > the
>>     > > > > use
>>     > > > > > of
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > "orchestrating" so I am changing that to "managing"
>>     which we
>>     > > don't
>>     > > > > > spend
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > much attention on in the RAF yet .(I just want to avoid
>>     > anyone
>>     > > > > asking
>>     > > > > > if
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > we mean that "all business services must be delivered via
>>     > > > > > > orchestration."):
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > Business drives the definition of business services aligned
>>     > > > > > with > enterprise business functionality and business
>>     > > > processes, > > > managing execution of these services, while IT
>>     > > > defines > > > infrastructure services,
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > providing support across a wide range of business services
>>     > > > > and > > implements both types of services. Such collaboration >
>>     > > > allows > > stronger communications between both, by creating >
>>     > > > one-to-one > > mapping between business and IT artifacts.
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > Regardless, since it is clear that Bob did not actually
>>     > > > pick > up > > Boris's additions and so didn't drop them, and Ken
>>     > > > had one > more > > addition he was considering, could we ask Ken
>>     > > > to correct > > Boris's > grammar, fold in Bob's slight rewording
>>     > > > and add his > > piece? Then, > perhaps Jeff and/or Jim could make
>>     > > > the crisp > > differentiation > between business services and SOA
>>     > > > services or > > between business > services and IT
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > services
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > Cheers,
>>     > > > > > > Rex
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > > Ellinger, Robert S (IS) wrote:
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >> Didn't intend to drop Boris's additions...must of missed >
>>     > > > them. > I >> thought we were to start from where you left off, so
>>     > > > > that is > >> what I
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > > did.
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >> Sorry Boris...Perhaps we were working concurrently and the
>>     > > > material
>>     > > > > > crossed.
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >> Bob
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >> -----Original Message-----
>>     > > > > > >> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>>     > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 1:10 AM
>>     > > > > > >> To: Lublinsky, Boris
>>     > > > > > >> Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
>>     > > > > >> > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday
>>     > [was:
>>     > > > > > >> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     > > business]
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >> My task was to get the work rolling. I have minor
>>     > quibbles with
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > > correct
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >> English grammar in Boris's additions, and I agree with
>>     > > > Jeff > > that >> the distinction between "business service' and
>>     > > > "SOA > > service" >> needs to be made. In general I think simpler
>>     > > > is > > better, but as >> long as the grammar is corrected, I'd be
>>     > > > fine > > with Boris's >> additions. I don't have any problems
>>     > > > with Bob's > > minor rewording, >> but i don't see why he dropped
>>     > > > Boris's > > additions..
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >> I'll look at it again in the morning.
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >> Cheers,
>>     > > > > > >> Rex
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >> Lublinsky, Boris wrote:
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>> You through away all changes that were suggested
>>     after this
>>     > > > > initial
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >> one?
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>> -----Original Message-----
>>     > > > > > >>> From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS)
>>     > [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com]
>>     > > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 6:41 PM
>>     > > > > > >>> To: rexb@starbourne.com
>>     > > > > > >>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
>>     > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > >>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday
>>     > [was:
>>     > > > > > >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     > > business]
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>> I'd recommend some minor rewording... -----Original
>>     > > Message-----
>>     > > > > > >>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>>     > > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 1:16 PM
>>     > > > > > >>> To: rexb@starbourne.com
>>     > > > > > >>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com;
>>     > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday
>>     > [was:
>>     > > > > > >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     > > business]
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>> First pass at the Section 1.2 as an additional paragraph
>>     > > > > > after >>> the first paragraph. I include the first paragraph
>>     > > > and > > the >>> start of the current second paragraph here for
>>     > > > the > > context:
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>> 1.2 Service Oriented Archtecture - An Ecosystem
>>     Perspective
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>> Many systems cannot be understood by a simple
>>     decomposition
>>     > > into
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > > parts
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>> and subsystems -- in particular when there are many >>> >
>>     > > > > interactions between the parts. For example, a biological >>> >
>>     > > > > ecosystem is a self-sustaining association of plants, animals,
>>     > > > > > >>> and the hysical environment in which they live.
>>     > > > Undestanding > > an >>> ecosystem often requires a holistic
>>     > > > perspective rather > > than one >>> focusing on the
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >> system's individual parts.
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>> The SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies the
>>     > > > > >>> > boundary between Business and IT. It is neither wholly IT
>>     > > > > nor >>> > wholly Business,
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>> but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT
>>     > completely own,
>>     > > > > > govern
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of concerns must
>>     > > > > be > >>> accommodated for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its >
>>     > > > purposes. > >>> Business
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>> needs drive the development of services delivered through
>>     > > > > IT, > >>> providing the capability that satisfies those needs.
>>     > > > > This is > >>> the business value of SOA.
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>> From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is a >
>>     > > > network > of >>> independent services, machines, the people who >
>>     > > > operate, > affect, >>> use and govern those services as well as >
>>     > > > ...
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>> Cheers,
>>     > > > > > >>> Rex
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>> Rex Brooks wrote:
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> Hi Ken, Everyone,
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> I believe that the email you are looking for is your
>>     > reply to
>>     > > > > > Frank:
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > >
>>     http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm-ra/email/archives
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>> /
>>     > > > > > >>>> 200906/msg00012.html
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> This is what Frank Wrote Jun 14, 2009, at 7:12 PM:
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> "I sympathize with the sentiment behind this. We have
>>     > > > >>>> > > consistently identified SOA as being at the boundary
>>     > > > between > >>>> > business and IT. It
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>> is
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> neither wholly IT nor wholly business but is of both
>>     > worlds.
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> That represents potentially one of SOA's greatest
>>     > > > opportunities;
>>     > > > > > and
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>> the source of its weaknesses: neither business nor
>>     IT can
>>     > > > > > completely
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>> own/grok SOA.
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> Frank"
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> The email referenced above contains the most or all
>>     of the
>>     > > > thread
>>     > > > > > "Are
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> we being ignored?"
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> I'm not sure we would help ourselves if we say more than
>>     > > > > > "The >>>> SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies
>>     > > > the > > boundary >>>> between Business and IT. It is neither
>>     > > > wholly IT > > nor wholly >>>> Business, but is
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>> of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely own,
>>     > > > > > govern >>>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of
>>     > > > concerns > > MUST be
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > > accommodated
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>>> for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its purposes."
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> Cheers,
>>     > > > > > >>>> Rex
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>> Laskey, Ken wrote:
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> This is a reminder that this week we are scheduled to
>>     > > discuss
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > > adding
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> the text on the overlap of SOA and business. Below is
>>     > text
>>     > > > > > suggested
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> by Michael Poulin and there is another email from
>>     > Boris with
>>     > > a
>>     > > > > lot
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> of
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> idea that would need to be condensed and
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > > added/substituted/combined.
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Let's get the discussion far enough along that we can
>>     > bring
>>     > > > this
>>     > > > > > to
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> (close to) closure by the end of Wednesday's call.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> I remember there was an email where Frank wrote
>>     something
>>     > > very
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > > crisp
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> on this subject that I replied was exactly what we
>>     > needed to
>>     > > > > say.
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Unfortunately, I have no idea when that email thread
>>     > > occurred.
>>     > > > > If
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> someone could find it, I think it would be a good
>>     > > contribution
>>     > > > > to
>>     > > > > > the
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> discussion.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Back to Mike's suggested text, two immediate things
>>     > come to
>>     > > > > mind.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 1. Section 1.4 is a discussion of the views and this
>>     > is not
>>     > > a
>>     > > > > view
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> to
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> be added as 1.4.4. I think it fits after section 1.2,
>>     > > possibly
>>     > > > > as
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> another short section.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 2. It is not obvious to me what the phrase "the >
>>     > > > similarity > of >>>>> the principles of the Value Networks >
>>     > > > business model" > means.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Ken
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -
>>     > > > > > >>>>> ------
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Dr. Kenneth Laskey
>>     > > > > > >>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax:
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 703-983-1379
>>     > > > > > >>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>     > > > > > >>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] Sent: >
>>     > > > >>>>> > Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:31 AM
>>     > > > > > >>>>> To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Subject: [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp
>>     > between IT
>>     > > > and
>>     > > > > > business
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Hi Folks,
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> I join Francis and Boris in suggestion that SOA RA's
>>     > > > > Introduction
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> would benefit from adding a couple of paragraphs on the
>>     > > > > > >>>>> business aspects of SOA positioned across Business and
>>     > > > IT.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> In the previous message I composed a few words for a
>>     > small
>>     > > > > section
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> on
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> this topic and propose to discuss them as an initial
>>     > draft
>>     > > > > during
>>     > > > > > the
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> next (or following) Telecom. Proposed text may be
>>     > found in
>>     > > the
>>     > > > > > middle
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> of this message chain.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Any suggestions?
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> - Michael
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -----------
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Subject: RE: todos for PR2
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com To:
>>     soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
>>     > > Date:
>>     > > > 8
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > > Sep
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 2009 16:21:26 -0000
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -----------
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> "positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and
>>     business" is
>>     > > what
>>     > > > I
>>     > > > > > write
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> a lot for last few months. So, let me propose a
>>     > strawman for
>>     > > > > this
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>> text:
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 1.4.4 Business Value of the Service Oriented
>>     Architecture
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> A Service Oriented Architecture realizes principles
>>     > of the
>>     > > > > concept
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> of
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> service orientation in the sphere of architecture. The
>>     > > > > > architecture
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> in the organisation comprises both business
>>     > > > architecture > > and >>>>> technical architecture of the systems
>>     > > > [ref. to TOGAF > > 9.0]. >>>>> While SOA-based systems address
>>     > > > aspects of the > > technical >>>>> architecture,
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > > the
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> similarity of the principles of the Value Networks
>>     > business
>>     > > > > model
>>     > > > > > and
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> SOA allows us to see SOA as a conceptual bridge between
>>     > > > > > >>>>> corporate Business and IT.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Noticed similarity opens up new possibilities for
>>     > Business
>>     > > and
>>     > > > > IT
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > > to
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> construct service-oriented customer-centric convergent
>>     > > > solutions
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > > for
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> business problems. Service orientation enables >
>>     > > > operational > >>>>> and technical flexibility, which contributes
>>     > > > > to business > >>>>> efficiency the
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> great deal. The Service Orientation concept has the > >
>>     > > > potential >>>>> not only to align IT with Business, but also to >
>>     > > > > align the >>>>> entire
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > > company
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> with the market dynamics.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> If the ideas in this writing are acceptable, I will
>>     > work on
>>     > > > the
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>> wording.
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> - Michael Poulin
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -----------
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> From: Francis McCabe To:
>>     > "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org RA"
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:24:08 -0700
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -----------
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 1. As Boris alluded to, I think that a paragraph or two
>>     > > > > in > >>>>> the introduction positioning SOA on the cusp between
>>     > > > > IT and > >>>>> business could be very useful. It is also pretty
>>     > > > > faithful > to >>>>> the RAF!
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 2. The concept of interaction in the RM referred > >
>>     > > > *everything* >>>>> involved in interacting with services. For the
>>     > > > > > RA we have to
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > > unpack
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> that some. This is the foundation for the multi-leveled
>>     > > > concept
>>     > > > > of
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> joint action. This should go in Section 3.1.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 3. I think that Danny's security diagram should be >
>>     > > > updated > >>>>> and incorporated.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 4. The trust and willingness stuff should go in.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> 5. It would be good if we could go through the text
>>     > bolding
>>     > > > > > defined
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> concepts.
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -----------
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     > > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -
>>     > > > > > >>>>> -----------
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>> [Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date
>>     > Next] --
>>     > > > > [Date
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > >>>>> Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
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>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>>>
>>     > > > > > >>> --
>>     > > > > > >>> Rex Brooks
>>     > > > > > >>> President, CEO
>>     > > > > > >>> Starbourne Communications Design
>>     > > > > > >>> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>>     > > > > > >>> Berkeley, CA 94702
>>     > > > > > >>> Tel: 510-898-0670
>>     > > > > > >>>
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>>     > --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>     > > > > > >>>
>>     > > > > > >> --
>>     > > > > > >> Rex Brooks
>>     > > > > > >> President, CEO
>>     > > > > > >> Starbourne Communications Design
>>     > > > > > >> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>>     > > > > > >> Berkeley, CA 94702
>>     > > > > > >> Tel: 510-898-0670
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > > > >>
>>     > > > >
>>     > >
>>     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>     > > > > > >> p
>>     > > > > > >>
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>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > > > --
>>     > > > > > Rex Brooks
>>     > > > > > President, CEO
>>     > > > > > Starbourne Communications Design
>>     > > > > > GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>>     > > > > > Berkeley, CA 94702
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>>     > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > >
>>     treport.com/pm/default.aspx?pagetypeid=homepage62&sc=669615&bcd=FOOTER5%
>>     > > > > > 20>
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > > > --
>>     > > > > An Excellent Credit Score is 750
>>     > > > > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
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>>     > > >
>>     > >
>>     <http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;216722518;39159097;q?http://www.freecredi
>>     > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > >
>>     treport.com/pm/default.aspx?pagetypeid=homepage62&sc=669615&bcd=FOOTER5%
>>     > > > > 20>
>>     > > > > << bus and tech 2.doc >>
>>     > > >
>>     > > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > >
>>     > > > --
>>     > > > An Excellent Credit Score is 750
>>     > > > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
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>>     > >
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>>     > > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!
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>>     >
>>
>>
>>     --
>>     Rex Brooks
>>     President, CEO
>>     Starbourne Communications Design
>>     GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>>     Berkeley, CA 94702
>>     Tel: 510-898-0670
>>
>>
>>
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>>     
>
>
> --
> Rex Brooks
> President, CEO
> Starbourne Communications Design
> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
> Berkeley, CA 94702
> Tel: 510-898-0670
>
>
>
>   


-- 
Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-898-0670



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