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Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa-rm-ra]p ositioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business]
Thanks Mike. Cheers, Rex Mike Poulin wrote: > I would agree with Rex > - Michael > > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com> >> To: "Thornton, Danny R (IS)" <Danny.Thornton@ngc.com> >> Cc: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org, "Francis McCabe" <fmccabe@gmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: [soa-rm-ra] p ositioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >> Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:57:07 -0700 >> >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> I suggest we all review the Meeting Notes and Recording from last >> week's session on Sept. 23, 2009. The action was pretty definite >> about Section 1.2. After all our discussions up to 2:56 p.m. >> Pacific Time on Friday, 9/25/09, per my admittedly unofficial poll >> <http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm-ra/email/archives/200909/msg00094.html>, a thin consensus at that time favored making no mention of independent and/or composable services in the proposed additional paragraph in Section 1.2. I haven't seen sufficient change in the overall consensus to justify mention of such >> services. >> >> Whether we also decline to add the remainder of the additional >> paragraph is now unclear. Please recall that our discussion was >> based on Frank's reply to Ken on Jun 14, 2009 at 7:12 p.m. Pacific >> Time. >> <http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm-ra/email/archives/200906/msg00012.html> >> >> To reiterate, my original pass at capturing our intent immediately >> following the meeting was: >> >> "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies the boundary >> between Business and IT. It is neither wholly IT nor wholly >> Business, but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely >> own, govern and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of concerns >> must be accommodated for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its purposes. >> Business needs drive the development of services delivered through >> IT, providing the capability that satisfies those needs. This is >> the business value of SOA. " >> >> I would propose, after all of our discussions up to this point to >> amend this to: >> >> "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document occupies the boundary >> between Business and IT. It is neither wholly IT nor wholly >> Business, but is of both worlds. Neither Business nor IT completely >> own, govern and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both sets of concerns >> must be accommodated for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill its purposes." >> >> I have so far consistently supported including some acceptable >> refinement of the first version, but, lacking that I would still >> prefer to have the introductory statement about the positioning of >> our work between Business and IT. >> >> In other words, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. We >> can revisit our discussions vis a vis a proper introductory mention >> of how business needs drive the development of business services >> and how IT services development support that or exist for their own >> mechanical purposes after PR02 is released. The issue of >> composability and/or aggregation as orchestrations and >> choreographies could then be addressed in the way Dan suggests or >> however else we decide. >> >> Cheers, >> Rex >> >> Thornton, Danny R (IS) wrote: >> >>>  >>> I concur with Frank, composition or aggregation qualifications to >>> service make for an odd discussion in section 1.2. Section 4.3.4, >>> Composition of Services, addresses the topic for the RAF. The >>> points about aggregation/composition could be weaved into section >>> 4.3.4. >>> Danny >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:* Francis McCabe [mailto:fmccabe@gmail.com] >>> *Sent:* Sunday, September 27, 2009 11:48 AM >>> *To:* Duane Nickull >>> *Cc:* Mike Poulin; James Odell; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>> *Subject:* Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>> [soa-rm-ra] p ositioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>> >>> I need to repeat this a little louder I guess: IT DOES NOT WORK FOR ME >>> >>> This entire discussion around composition of services is (a) >>> superficial and (b) beside the point in relation to the vast >>> majority of the RAF. If we are going to take composition more >>> seriously, then it MUST wait until after PR2. >>> >>> Frank >>> On Sep 27, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Duane Nickull wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Works for me. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 9/27/09 11:30 AM, "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Yes, Duane, in general, no objections. >>>> >>>> However, do we need to define composition 'in general' in SOA RA >>>> or primarily with respect to services? >>>> >>>> If the letter is our intention, let me 'trim' your definition in >>>> this way: >>>> >>>> <<composition is a way to combine services into more complex >>>> ones. The components or individual services, while part of the >>>> whole, may exist independent of the whole.>> >>>> >>>> What do you think? >>>> >>>> – Michael >>>> >>>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > From: "Duane Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com >>>> <x-msg://15/dnickull@adobe.com>> >>>> > To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>>, "James Odell" >>>> <email@jamesodell.com <x-msg://15/email@jamesodell.com>>, >>>> "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>" >>>> <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>> >>>> > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>> [soa-rm-ra] p ositioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>> > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 10:43:27 -0700 >>>> > >>>> > I am fine with it as long as we define it such as: >>>> > >>>> > composition is a way to combine services, objects or data types >>>> > into more complex ones. The components, while part of the whole, >>>> > may exist independent of the whole. >>>> > >>>> > Duane >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On 9/27/09 2:35 AM, "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > In my mind, composition facilitates reuse. >>>> > >>>> > The next question in this row is 'what is reuse?' I define service >>>> > reuse as the use of the service in the changed/new execution >>>> > context; otherwise, it is just a multiple use of the service (i.e. >>>> > exactly how the service was defined. This, BTW, leads to one more >>>> > issue (a chain of reaction): the execution context description has >>>> > to be a part of the Service Description, i.e. the service >>>> > definition for the consumers) >>>> > >>>> > - Michael >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > From: "Duane Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com >>>> <x-msg://15/dnickull@adobe.com>> >>>> > > To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>>, "James Odell" >>>> > > <email@jamesodell.com <x-msg://15/email@jamesodell.com>>, >>>> "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>" >>>> > > <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>> >>>> > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>> > > [soa-rm-ra] p ositioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>> > > Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 16:32:29 -0700 >>>> > > >>>> > > If this is the consensus, I am happy with this as long as we add a >>>> > > glossary term to denote that the composition does not necessarily >>>> > > preclude reuse (ie – independent lifecycles >>>> for the parts). >>>> > > >>>> > > D >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > On 9/26/09 2:54 PM, "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > I used term 'composite' only because this word has somehow become >>>> > > commonly used but its sense is certainly 'aggregate'. >>>> > > >>>> > > I am happy with '...independent and aggregate services...' while, >>>> > > IMO, 'composable' and 'independent' are not antonyms: and >>>> > > independent service may be composed of other services. Aggregate, >>>> > > in the contrast, is the service that depends on others. >>>> > > >>>> > > I remember related discussion about a year ago in one of the >>>> > > Telecoms; I started to use the term 'aggregate' since that time >>>> > > but was asked on several occasions what it meant. >>>> > > >>>> > > - Michael >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > > From: "James Odell" <email@jamesodell.com >>>> <x-msg://15/email@jamesodell.com>> >>>> > > > To: "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>" >>>> <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>> >>>> > > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > [soa-rm-ra] p ositioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >>>> business] >>>> > > > Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:22:54 -0400 >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > Additionally in UML ³composite aggregation², the >>>> > > composite object has >>>> > > > responsibility for the existence and storage of the composed >>>> objects >>>> > > > (parts). So can a composite service be thought of as having the >>>> > > > responsibility for the existence and storage of the composed >>>> objects >>>> > > > (parts)? I would say yes ‹ but is this always >>>> true? For >>>> > > > example a Process >>>> > > > Order service could defined as a SOAservice that has >>>> > > responsibility for the >>>> > > > existence for other first class services that are composed >>>> (e.g., Accept >>>> > > > order, Fill Order, Ship Order and Close Order). Here, the >>>> cmpositing >>>> > > > service could include service orchestration, as Duane suggests. >>>> > > > On the other hand, Could I have a service that is a >>>> ³taxonomic² >>>> > > > aggregation. >>>> > > > For example, a Process Payment service may simply consist of >>>> > > various kinds >>>> > > > of first class payment services, such as Cash Payment, Credit >>>> > > Card Payment, >>>> > > > Wire Transfer payment, etc). However, one could also argue >>>> > > that event this >>>> > > > could be thought of a composite, because it the >>>> responsibiliy for the >>>> > > > existence and storage of the composed services. However, >>>> this may or may >>>> > > > not nvolve orchestration ‹ only part whole. >>>> > > > >>>> > > > -Jim Odell >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > On 9/25/09 6:14 PM, "Duane Nickull" indited: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > > Via Aggregation. Aggregation is a UML pattern whereby the >>>> parts >>>> > > > > are ³used² by >>>> > > > > the whole. If th whole does not exist, the parts can exist >>>> which is >>>> > > > > necessary for re-use. Composition (by contrast) is a UML >>>> > > > pattern whereby the >>>> > > > > parts are ³part of² the whole, hence their >>>> lifecycle is tied >>>> > > > to the lifecycle >>>> > > > > of the whole. When the whole ceases to exist, so do the parts, >>>> > > > > hence making >>>> > > > > ³reuse² not possible. >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > I think aggregation is a better term, however the press >>>> and others have >>>> > > > > already gone with ³service composition² as >>>> a buzzword. >>>> > > > Service Orchestration >>>> > > > > is just as good as aggregation IMO. >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > Duane >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > > On 9/25/09 2:50 PM, "Lublinsky, Boris" >>>> > > <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com >>>> <x-msg://15/boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>> wrote: >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >> If the services are not composable, then how are they better >>>> > > compared to >>>> > > > >> existing applications >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> --- original message --- >>>> > > > >> From: "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starboune.com >>>> <x-msg://15/rexb@starboune.com>> >>>> > > > >> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for Wednesday >>>> > > [was: [soa-rm-r] >>>> > > > >> positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and business] >>>> > > > >> Date: September 25, 2009 >>>> > > > >> Time: 4:41:26 PM >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> Duane, I'm picturing you tugging on Superman's cape, while >>>> > > spittin' into >>>> > > > >> the wind, tilting at windmills and messin' with Bad Bad >>>> LeRoy Brown, >>>> > > > >> while sliding into heaven sideways, brew in hand singing, >>>> > > "What a Ride!" >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> You're right, and so is Frank, and I definitely prefer >>>> "aggregate-able >>>> > > > >> or capable of being included in various types of >>>> aggregations,"... >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> but I think the boat already left, folks. We don't have to >>>> > > catch up with >>>> > > > >> it nor need we catch the next one. It will go as it will. >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> I personally don't have strong enough feelings about it >>>> to be road kill >>>> > > > >> for it or against it. I happen to be involved in a set of >>>> SOA services >>>> > > > >> that absolutely MUST be composable, but I am satisfied that >>>> > > they will be >>>> > > > >> regardless of how this sentence in theSOA-RAF >>>> introduction is worded. >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> It makes it marginally easier for me to get the business >>>> audiences I >>>> > > > >> deal with to act right if "composable" services is something >>>> > > I can point >>>> > > > >> to when or if we get people insisting on something really >>>> dumb, like >>>> > > > >> "Point-to-Point" is the only distribution protocol that >>>> counts," or "we >>>> > > > >> can use the rules for RSS Feeds for all distribution." I >>>> > > suppose its not >>>> > > > >> impossible, but I don't really expect to see it. >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> BTW, I don't read the sentence to ean that ALL >>>> independent services >>>> > > > >> MUST also be composable. It means " a network of >>>> independent services >>>> > > > >> and/or composable services." I think independent >>>> composable services is >>>> > > > >> almost a contradiction of erms or almost an oxymoron. >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> Cheers, >>>> > > > >> Rex >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> Duane Nickull wrote: >>>> > > > >>> > My take on this: >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> >>>> http://technoracle.blogspot.com/2007/09/soa-anti-patterns-service-compositio >>>> > > > >>> n.html >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > D >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > On 9/25/9 1:21 PM, "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>> wrote: >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > I do not have any strong objections. >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > 'Composable' means to me that the service may be >>>> composed; the >>>> > > > >>> > question is - composed by what and how this corresponds to >>>> > > > >>> > 'independent'? 'Composite' or 'aggregate' (as Ken >>>> > > pointed once) is >>>> > > > >>> > the service, which is composed already by other >>>> services, which >>>> > > > >>> > comprises other services, i.e. it is not independent. >>>> > > This is what >>>> > > > >>> > I tried to "EmFasis" :-) >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > You, folks, decide. >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > - Michael >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > > >>>> > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" >>>> <robert.ellinger@ngc.com <x-msg://15/robert.ellinger@ngc.com>> >>>> > > > >>>> > > To: "Lublinsky, Boris" <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com >>>> <x-msg://15/boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>>, "Mike >>>> > > > >>> > Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>>, soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>> > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for >>>> Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > >>> > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT and >>>> business] >>>> > > > >>>> > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:01:34 -0500 >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Mike, I like the sentence. Boris, I think that >>>> "composable >>>> > > > >>> > services" is >>>> > > > >>>> > > the correct term. I've heard many "experts" and >>>> > > > "gurus" use the >>>> > > > term >>>> > > > >>>> > > and concept since at least 2003 and seems to me to >>>> put the >>>> > > > >>> > "EmFasis on >>>> > > > >>>> > > the rite Silobbal", as my dad would say. >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>> > > From: Lublinsky, Boris >>>> [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com] >>>> > > > >>>> > > Sent: Friday,September 25, 2009 3:50 PM >>>> > > > >>>> > > To: Mike Poulin; Ellinger, Robert S (IS); >>>> Lublinsky, Boris; >>>> > > > >>>> > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>> > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for >>>> Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > >>>> > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT >>>> > > > and business] >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Composable? >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>> > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>> > > > >>>> > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 2:27 PM >>>> > > > >>>> > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; >>>> Lublinsky, Boris; >>>> > > > >>>> > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>> > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for >>>> Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > >>>> > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT >>>> > > > and business] >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > Bob, >>>> > > > >>>> > > this is the phrase: >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > From a holistic perspective, a SOA-based system is >>>> > > > a network of >>>> > > > >>>> > > independent services, machines, the people who >>>> > > operate, affect, >>>> > > > >>> > use and >>>> > > > >>>> > > govern those services as well as ... >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > I propose to say: "...a network of independent and >>>> composite >>>> > > > >>> > services, >>>> > > > >>>> > > machines, the..." >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > - Michael >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" >>>> <robert.ellinger@ngc.com <x-msg://15/robert.ellinger@ngc.com>> >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>>, "Lublinsky, Boris" >>>> > > > >>>> > > <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com >>>> <x-msg://15/boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>>, >>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for >>>> > > > Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > >>>> > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT >>>> > > > and business] >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:40:28 -0500 >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > There was one sentence that you sent that I could >>>> > > > not make head >>>> > > > or >>>> > > > >>>> > > tail >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > of as I noted. Otherwise, I hought I had >>>> > > > incorporated all of >>>> > > > your >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > comments >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Bob >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 1:31 PM >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Mike Poulin; >>>> > > Lublinsky, Boris; >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for >>>> > > > Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > >>>> > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT >>>> > > > and business] >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > I am afraid, I am lost. I do not see some of the >>>> > > > >>>>> crucial changes >>>> > > > I >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > advocated for and you agreed to accommodate: >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > "The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must >>>> > > > >>>>> be understood >>>> > > > in >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > terms of its support of business services." >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > - MP - great! >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > "Business services provide business functionality >>>> > > > in pursuit of >>>> > > > >>>> > > business >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > outcome; while SOA services provide IT artifacts >>>> > > > >>>>> that facilitate >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > connectivity of functional units to realize and >>>> > > support the >>>> > > > >>> > business >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > services." >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > - MP - my proposal: 'Business services provide >>>> business >>>> > > > >>> > functionality >>>> > > > >>>> > > in >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > pursuit of the business outcome; while IT >>>> > > > artifacts facilitate >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > connectivity of functional units to realize and >>>> > > support the >>>> > > > >>> > business >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > services.' >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > "Therefore, SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly >>>> > > > >>>>> Business, but is >>>> > > > of >>>> > > > >>>> > > both >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > worlds." >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > - MP - great! You commented: 'This doesn't make >>>> > > > sense to me. It >>>> > > > >>> > is not >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > cnnected to SOA in anyway' but left the >>>> > > statement. I am for >>>> > > > having >>>> > > > >>>> > >this >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > statement as it is (it is not my text but very >>>> > > right oe IMO) >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > "Neither Business nor IT completely own govern, >>>> and manage >>>> > > > >>> > this SOA >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Ecosystem. The SOA Eosystem must accommodate >>>> both sets of >>>> > > > concerns >>>> > > > >>>> > > for >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > t fulfill its purpose and potential." >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > - MP - great! >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > "Business needs to drive the development of >>>> > > > services delivered >>>> > > > >>> > through >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > processes and its supporting IT, which provides >>>> > > > the capability >>>> > > > that >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > satisfies those needs. This is the business >>>> value of SOA." >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > - MP - development of services is not necessary >>>> delivered >>>> > > > through >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > processes and supporting IT. This is why my >>>> proposal is: >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > 'Business needs to drive the development of >>>> > > > services, which >>>> > > > >>> > provides >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the capability that satisfies those needs. This >>>> > > > is the business >>>> > > > >>> > value >>>> > > > >>>> > > of >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > SOA.' >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > or >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > 'Business needs to drive the development of >>>> > > > >>>>> services delivered >>>> > > > >>>> > > through >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Business and IT, which provides the capability >>>> > > > that satisfies >>>> > > > those >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > needs. This is the business value of SOA.' >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > (i.e. none Business or IT , or both; SOA is in >>>> > > between them) >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Thus, my variant of the text looks like this: >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > The SOA Ecosystem described in this document must >>>> > > > be understood >>>> > > > in >>>> > > > >>>> > > terms >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > of its support of business services. Business >>>> > > > services provide >>>> > > > >>>> > > business >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > functionality in pursuit of the business >>>> outcome; while IT >>>> > > > >>> > artifacts >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > facilitate connectivity of functional units to >>>> realize and >>>> > > > >>> > support the >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > business services. Therefore, SOA is neither >>>> wholly IT nor >>>> > > > wholly >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Business, but is of both worlds. Neither Business >>>> > > > nor IT >>>>> >>>> > > > completely >>>> > > > >>>> > > own, >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > govern, and manage this SOA Ecosystem. The SOA >>>> > > > Ecosystem must >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > accommodate both sets of concerns for to fulfill >>>> > > > >>>>> its purpose and >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > potential. Business needs to drive the >>>> > > > development of services, >>>> > > > >>> > which >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > provides the capability that satisfies those >>>> > > > needs. This is the >>>> > > > >>>> > > business >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > value of SOA. >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > - Michael >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" >>>> > > <robert.ellinger@ngc.com <x-msg://15/robert.ellinger@ngc.com>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>>, "Lublinsky, Boris" >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com >>>> <x-msg://15/boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>>, >>>> > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for >>>> > > > >>>>>> Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp between IT >>>> > > > >>>>> and business] >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:56:23 -0500 >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Try this. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Bob >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 11:31 AM >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > To: Lublinsky, Boris; Mike Poulin; >>>> > > > >>>>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for >>>> > > > >>>>>> Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> between IT and >>>> > > > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Boris has reminded me one thing: in the >>>> > > > paragraph following >>>> > > > >>> > the two >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > paragraphs we are discussing now we say >>>> > > > something like 'SOA >>>> > > > is a >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > network >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > of independent services...' I would modify >>>> > > > this phrase a bit >>>> > > > >>> > saying >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > something like 'SOA is a network of independent >>>> > > > >>>>>> and composite >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > services...' >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Sorry, I did not mention this earlier. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > This is all what I wanted to say about SOA >>>> and Buz. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > - Michael >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > From: "Lublinsky, Boris" >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > To: "Mike Poulin" , >>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for >>>> > > > >>>>>> Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> between IT and >>>> > > > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:04:35 -0500 >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > I tend to agree with Mike/jeff >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > See below >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 5:15 AM >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion for >>>> > > > >>>>>> Wednesday [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> between IT and >>>> > > > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Importance: High >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > I believe service orientation has the enormous >>>> > > > potential to >>>> > > > >>> > become >>>> > > > >>>> > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > basic business operational model and SOA will be >>>> > > > >>>>>> the basis of >>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Business Architecture. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Since we do not have time for this >>>> > > discussion now, let's >>>> > > > >>> > return to >>>> > > > >>>> > > our >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > text. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > B.L. Moreover, as I re read the text I am >>>> > > > realizing more and >>>> > > > more >>>> > > > >>>> > > that >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > this is not so much about SOA but mostly about >>>> > > > ESB. I am of >>>> > > > >>> > course >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > over >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > simplifying, but hopefully you got the jest. >>>> > > > We managed to >>>> > > > >>> > leap frog >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > business architecture and servicizing the >>>> > > > >>>>>> enterprise and jump >>>> > > > >>>> > > directly >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > into the issues of service interaction - >>>> > > > ecosystem. This is >>>> > > > fine, >>>> > > > >>>> > > but >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > who is going to live in this wonderful ecosystem. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > The only thing I hope to set in the RA >>>> > > > standard is an open >>>> > > > >>> > door to >>>> > > > >>>> > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Business opportunity of SOA instead of >>>> > > locking it in IT. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > This means I vote for enough 'ambiguity' in >>>> > > the text that >>>> > > > would >>>> > > > >>>> > > allow >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > anybody to go with SOA in both - technical >>>> > > and business - >>>> > > > >>>> > > directions, >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > if >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > needed. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > B.L. Fair enough. Lets create the door, but >>>> > > > may be, just may >>>> > > > >>> > be open >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > it >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > up slightly for the next review. This is why >>>> > > I think, the >>>> > > > >>> > text under >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > discussion, does not belong in the >>>> > > ecosystem, but rather >>>> > > > >>> > above it. >>>> > > > >>>> > > We >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > talk about business/IT alignment and then >>>> > > > define ecosystem >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > The following is my modifications to the text >>>> > > > that together >>>> > > > >>> > aim only >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > one >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > statement: "SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly >>>> > > > >>>>>> Business, but >>>> > > > >>> > is of >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > both >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > worlds." Particularly: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > a) I agree in full with: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > < >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > components and subsystems. They must be >>>> > > understood within >>>> > > > their >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > context >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > or environment; particularly, when there are many >>>> > > > >>> > interactions among >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > parts. For example, a biological ecosystem is a >>>> > > > >>>>>> self-sustaining >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > association of plants, animals, and the >>>> > > > physical environment >>>> > > > in >>>> > > > >>>> > > which >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > they live. Understanding an ecosystem often >>>> > > requires this >>>> > > > >>> > holistic >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > perspective of the system and its environment >>>> > > > >>>>>> rather than one >>>> > > > >>>> > > focusing >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > on the system's individual parts.>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > b) I DISagree with << The SOA Ecosystem >>>> > > described in this >>>> > > > >>> > document >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > must >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > be understood in terms of its support of >>>> > > > business services, >>>> > > > >>> > which is >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > its >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > environment.>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > My proposal is this: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > << The SOA Ecosystem described in this >>>> document must be >>>> > > > >>> > understood >>>> > > > >>>> > > in >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > terms of its support of business services.>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > B.L. See comment above >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > c) I DISagree with << Business services >>>> > > provide business >>>> > > > >>>> > > functionality >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > in pursuit of the business outcome; while SOA >>>> services >>>> > > > provide IT >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > artifacts that facilitate connectivity of >>>> > > > >>>>>> functional units to >>>> > > > >>>> > > realize >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > and support the business services. Therefore, >>>> > > > SOA is neither >>>> > > > >>> > wholly >>>> > > > >>>> > > IT >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > nor wholly Business, but is of both worlds. >> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > My proposal is this: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > < >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > outcome, together with its technical >>>> > > > realization and support >>>> > > > >>>> > > provided >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > by >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Information Technology. Therefore, SOA is >>>> > > > neither wholly IT >>>> > > > nor >>>> > > > >>>> > > wholly >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Business, but is of both worlds.>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > B.L. How about: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > << SOA is neither wholly IT nor wholly >>>> > > > Business, but is of >>>> > > > both >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > worlds. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Without involvement of the business, defining >>>> service >>>> > > > >>> > functionality >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > based on the enterprise business model and >>>> > > > aligned with the >>>> > > > >>>> > > enterprise >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > business processes, SOA can't fulfill the >>>> promise of >>>> > > > business/IT >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > alignment and support for flexible, >>>> process-driven >>>> > > > enterprise. >>>> > > > >>>> > > Without >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > involvement of IT, implementing SOA >>>> > > ecosystem, supporting >>>> > > > >>> > flexible >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > service deployment, interactions, monitoring >>>> > > > and management >>>> > > > SOA >>>> > > > >>>> > > can't >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > fulfill the promise of scalable, maintainable >>>> IT.>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > d) I DISagree with << Business needs drive the >>>> > > > >>>>>> development of >>>> > > > >>>> > > services >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > delivered through IT, which provides the >>>> > > capability that >>>> > > > >>> > satisfies >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > those >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > needs. This is the business value of SOA.>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > My proposal is: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > << Business needs to drive the development of >>>> > > > >>>>>> services, which >>>> > > > >>>> > > provides >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > the capability that satisfies those needs. >>>> This is the >>>> > > > business >>>> > > > >>>> > > value >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > of >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > SOA.>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > or >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > << Business needs to drive the development of >>>> services >>>> > > > delivered >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > through >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Business and IT, which provides the capability >>>> > > > >>>>>> that satisfies >>>> > > > >>> > those >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > needs. This is the business value of SOA.>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Regards, >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > - Michael >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" To: "Mike >>>> Poulin" , >>>> > > > "Lublinsky, >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Boris" >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > , rexb@starbourne.com >>>> <x-msg://15/rexb@starbourne.com> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , >>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion >>>> > > > for Wednesday >>>> > > > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> between IT and >>>> > > > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:30:41 -0500 >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Mike: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > We are trying to get to the same concept, >>>> > > > but really what >>>> > > > >>> > is being >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > discussed is a cultural paradigm shift. In >>>> > > > my view, the >>>> > > > >>> > execution >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > context is the technical context within >>>> > > > which the service >>>> > > > >>>> > > components >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > exist and within in which they are executed >>>> > > > as enablers >>>> > > > and >>>> > > > >>>> > > support >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > for >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > the process. The service components are >>>> > > the parts and >>>> > > > >>>> > > subassemblies. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > The process flow, which is part of the >>>> > > > execution context, >>>> > > > as >>>> > > > >>>> > > defined >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > by >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > the orchestration or choreography (both >>>> > > of which have >>>> > > > business >>>> > > > >>>> > > rules >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > engines to ensure that >>>> policies/standards/business >>>> > > > >>> > rules/etc. are >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > followed). >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Business process modeling as instantiated by >>>> > > > >>>>>>> the assembled >>>> > > > >>> > of the >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > SOA >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > service components, with the associated >>>> > > business rule, >>>> > > > >>> > links the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > system >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > to the business processes. Provided that >>>> > > the business >>>> > > > processes >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > serve >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > the goals or objectives or the business >>>> > > > (that is provides >>>> > > > >>> > value to >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > business) then the tools as instantiated >>>> in the SOA >>>> > > > service >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > multiplies >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > the effectiveness of the process. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > The cultural shift involves the fact that >>>> > > > when business >>>> > > > >>> > challenges >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > or >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > opportunities arise, the business >>>> processes and SOA >>>> > > > supporting >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > services >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > can meet those challenge because SOA enable >>>> > > > >>>>>>> agile systems. >>>> > > > I >>>> > > > >>>> > > define >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > agility as "successful response to >>>> > > > unexpected challenges >>>> > > > and >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > opportunities." BTW, this is the definition >>>> > > > >>>>>>> of the Agility >>>> > > > >>> > Forum >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > (circa >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > 1990) associated with Lehigh University (that >>>> > > > >>>>>>> is Nagel and >>>> > > > his >>>> > > > >>>> > > group >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > that wrote the book on the agile >>>> > > > enterprise). Currently, >>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > monolithic >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > architecture of most ERP-like systems do >>>> not allow >>>> > > > agility, >>>> > > > >>> > while >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > functional architecture place emphasis on >>>> > > > optimizing for >>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > function; >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > creating silos. There is an axiom in >>>> > > > Systems Engineering >>>> > > > that >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > optimizing the subsystems, sub-optimizes >>>> > > > the system. SOA >>>> > > > >>> > enables >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > both >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > optimization and agility of the system, >>>> but requires >>>> > > > mapping of >>>> > > > >>>> > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > system to the organization's processes as >>>> the price >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > I could and have said a great deal more, >>>> > > > but I think that >>>> > > > is >>>> > > > >>>> > > enough. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > The linkage is there for anyone to get the >>>> > > > maximum value >>>> > > > out of >>>> > > > >>>> > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > SOA >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > and both the business processes and the >>>> composite >>>> > > > applications >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > (process >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > assembled service components???) or >>>> > > > whatever operating in >>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > execution >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > context, must enable and support the >>>> > > processes. As the >>>> > > > >>> > processes >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > change >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > in response to challenges and >>>> > > opportunities, both the >>>> > > > processes >>>> > > > >>>> > > and >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > composite application must respond quickly and >>>> > > > >>> > successfully. This >>>> > > > >>>> > > is >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > not the way it is done now, and that is >>>> the cultural >>>> > > > change >>>> > > > >>> > that >>>> > > > >>>> > > is >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > needed. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 7:18 PM >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Lublinsky, Boris; >>>> > > > >>> > rexb@starbourne.com <x-msg://15/rexb@starbourne.com> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>; >>>> > > > >>> > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion >>>> > > > for Wednesday >>>> > > > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> > > between IT and >>>> > > > >>> > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Robert, >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > as we know SOA defines Execution Context. >>>> > > > Since we never >>>> > > > >>> > defined >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > what >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > it >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > includes, I suggest (and promote this >>>> > > opinion) that EC >>>> > > > includes >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Business >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > EC and Technical EC. Business services >>>> > > cannot be 'the >>>> > > > >>> > environment >>>> > > > >>>> > > of >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > SOA Ecosystem' because it is included into >>>> > > > SOA. Business >>>> > > > EC >>>> > > > >>>> > > defines >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > business execution policies and Technical >>>> EC defines >>>> > > > technical >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > execution >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > policies. SOA Ecosystem comprises both >>>> business and >>>> > > > technical >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > realms. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Phrase "while SOA services provide IT >>>> artifacts that >>>> > > > facilitate >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > connectivity of functional units to realize >>>> > > > and support >>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>> > > business >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > services."" has a problem because SOA >>>> > > service does not >>>> > > > >>> > necessary >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > "facilitate connectivity of functional >>>> units". For >>>> > > > instance,a >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > self-contained stand-alone business >>>> > > technical service >>>> > > > >>> > realises its >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > own >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > business function or feature w/o joining >>>> with other >>>> > > > "functional >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > units". >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Plus, SOA Service may or may not contain any >>>> > > > >>>>>>> IT artefacts. >>>> > > > Time >>>> > > > >>>> > > when >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > SOA >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > was considered a pure technical thing is >>>> > > gone (and for >>>> > > > good). >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > I agree with you on "The value of IT is the >>>> > > > same as any >>>> > > > other >>>> > > > >>>> > > tool". >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > This is why I think that statement " >>>> > > > Business needs drive >>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > development of services delivered through >>>> IT, which >>>> > > > >>> > provides the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > capability that satisfies those needs. >>>> This is the >>>> > > > business >>>> > > > >>> > value >>>> > > > >>>> > > of >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > SOA" requires corrections. Development of >>>> > > > services is not >>>> > > > >>>> > > necessary >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > delivered through IT, it may be purely >>>> > > manual business >>>> > > > >>> > service and >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > many >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > services of such nature exist. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Based on my discussion in several Business >>>> > > > Architecture >>>> > > > >>> > groups on >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Web, any business process in Business may >>>> > > > be defined as >>>> > > > >>> > business >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > service >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > with or without technical component. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> Implementation of the >>>> > > > >>>> > > business >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > service, as we know, is not that important for >>>> > > > >>>>>>> service-oriented >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Architecture. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > If we state that SOA positions BETWEEN >>>> > > > >>>>>>> Business and IT, we >>>> > > > >>> > MAY NOT >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > attribute it to IT only and confront it >>>> > > > with the business >>>> > > > >>> > service. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > This >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > is illogical. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > - Michael >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > From: "Ellinger, Robert S (IS)" >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > To: "Lublinsky, Boris" , >>>> rexb@starbourne.com <x-msg://15/rexb@starbourne.com> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Cc: "Laskey, Ken" , mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>, >>>> > > > >>>> > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion >>>> > > > for Wednesday >>>> > > > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> > > between IT and >>>> > > > >>> > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:19:49 -0500 >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > See below >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > From: Lublinsky, Boris >>>> > > > >>>>>>> [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:58 AM >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); >>>> rexb@starbourne.com <x-msg://15/rexb@starbourne.com>; >>>> > > > >>> > Lublinsky, Boris >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>; >>>> > > > >>> > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion >>>> > > > for Wednesday >>>> > > > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> > > between IT and >>>> > > > >>> > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > I have no idea what this means: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > "The SOA Ecosystem described in this >>>> > > document must be >>>> > > > >>> > understood >>>> > > > >>>> > > in >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > terms of its support of business services, >>>> > > > which is its >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > environment." >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > What is which environment? >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Business services are the environment of >>>> the SOA >>>> > > > Ecosystem. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Also: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > " Business services provide business >>>> > > functionality in >>>> > > > >>> > pursuit of >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > business outcome; while SOA services >>>> > > > provide IT artifacts >>>> > > > that >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > facilitate connectivity of functional units >>>> > > > >>>>>>> to realize and >>>> > > > >>> > support >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > business services." >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > SOA services is a complete misnomer. >>>> > > > Infrastructure I can >>>> > > > >>> > buy, but >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > SOA >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > services? >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > I disagree with that. The infrastructure >>>> > > > provides nothing >>>> > > > >>> > except >>>> > > > >>>> > > an >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > operating context. Only when SOA Service >>>> > > (which in my >>>> > > > >>>> > > understanding >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > is >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > a composite application with contractual >>>> > > obligations) >>>> > > > >>> > provide any >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > value >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > to the customer. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > And finally: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > " Business needs drive the development of >>>> services >>>> > > > delivered >>>> > > > >>>> > > through >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > IT, >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > which provides the capability that >>>> > > > satisfies those needs. >>>> > > > >>> > This is >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > business value of SOA." >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > This has several problems: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > 1. Business is concerned only with business >>>> > > > services and >>>> > > > drives >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > their >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > design, not development 2. What is the >>>> > > business value? >>>> > > > What >>>> > > > >>> > does >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > this >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > points to? >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > My understanding of the term development >>>> is that it >>>> > > > includes >>>> > > > >>>> > > design, >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > but >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > if you want to change it...The value of IT >>>> > > > is the same as >>>> > > > any >>>> > > > >>>> > > other >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > tool, to multiple the value of the process. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Adam Smith pointed this out in Chapter 1 of >>>> > > > Book 1 of the >>>> > > > >>> > Wealth >>>> > > > >>>> > > of >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Nations. This is a point lost on IT as >>>> this comment >>>> > > > >>> > demonstrates. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > I think we are digressing. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > I hope not. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) >>>> > > > >>>>>>> [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:46 AM >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > To: rexb@starbourne.com >>>> <x-msg://15/rexb@starbourne.com>; Lublinsky, Boris >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>; >>>> > > > >>> > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion >>>> > > > for Wednesday >>>> > > > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> > > between IT and >>>> > > > >>> > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Hi: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Please try this edit. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Bob >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 10:34 AM >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > To: Lublinsky, Boris >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; >>>> > > > >>>>>>> mpoulin@usa.com <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>; >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion >>>> > > > for Wednesday >>>> > > > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> > > between IT and >>>> > > > >>> > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Very minor grammar correction, Boris, >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > I'm just a nit picker. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > ;) >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Rex >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Lublinsky, Boris wrote: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > I haven't seen people discussing my >>>> > > grammar so much >>>> > > > >>> > lately. I am >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > doing >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > something wrong sorry. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > I am fine with managing >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > From: Rex Brooks >>>> [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 9:07 AM >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > To: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Cc: Lublinsky, Boris; Laskey, Ken; >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> mpoulin@usa.com <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>; > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro discussion >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> for Wednesday >>>> > > > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> > > > between IT and >>>> > > > >>> > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Hi Folks, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > I'm being technically challenged at >>>> > > the moment with >>>> > > > remote >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > participation >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > in overlapping meetings the latter of >>>> which isn't >>>> > > > starting >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > and > > the former of which appears to have >>>> > > > >>>>>> ended early while >>>> > > > I >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > dropped > > off to attend the latter.Sheseh! >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Here's how I would correct Boris's >>>> > > grammar with one >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > word-substitution: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > I >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > don't want the concept of >>>> "orchestration" being >>>> > > > confused with >>>> > > > >>>> > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > use >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > of >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > "orchestrating" so I am changing that >>>> > > to "managing" >>>> > > > which we >>>> > > > >>>> > > don't >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > spend >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > much attention on in the RAF yet .(I just >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> want to avoid >>>> > > > >>> > anyone >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > asking >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > if >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > we mean that "all business services must >>>> > > > be delivered >>>> > > > via >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > orchestration."): >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Business drives the definition of >>>> > > business services >>>> > > > aligned >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > with > enterprise business functionality >>>> > > and business >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > processes, > > > managing execution of these >>>> > > > services, while IT >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > defines > > > infrastructure services, >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > providing support across a wide range >>>> of business >>>> > > > services >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > and > > implements both types of services. Such >>>> > > > >>>>>> collaboration >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > allows > > stronger communications between both, >>>> > > > by creating > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > one-to-one > > mapping between business and IT >>>> artifacts. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Regardless, since it is clear that Bob did >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> not actually >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > pick > up > > Boris's additions and so didn't drop >>>> > > > >>>>> them, and Ken >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > had one > more > > addition he was considering, >>>> > > > >>>>> could we ask Ken >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > to correct > > Boris's > grammar, fold in Bob's >>>> > > > >>>>> slight rewording >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > and add his > > piece? Then, > perhaps Jeff >>>> > > and/or Jim could >>>> > > > make >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the crisp > > differentiation > between business >>>> > > > services and >>>> > > > SOA >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > services or > > between business > services and IT >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > services >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Cheers, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Rex >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Ellinger, Robert S (IS) wrote: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Didn't intend to drop Boris's >>>> > > additions...must of >>>> > > > missed > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > them. > I >> thought we were to start from where >>>> > > > you left off, >>>> > > > so >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > that is > >> what I >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > did. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Sorry Boris...Perhaps we were working >>>> > > > concurrently >>>> > > > and the >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > material >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > crossed. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Bob >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> From: Rex Brooks >>>> [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 >>>> 1:10 AM >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> To: Lublinsky, Boris >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Cc: Ellinger, Robert S (IS); Laskey, Ken; >>>> > > > mpoulin@usa.com <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>; >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > >> > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro >>>> discussion for >>>> > > > Wednesday >>>> > > > >>> > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the >>>> > > > cusp between IT >>>> > > > and >>>> > > > >>>> > > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> My task was to get the work rolling. >>>> > > I have minor >>>> > > > >>> > quibbles with >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > correct >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> English grammar in Boris's >>>> > > additions, and I agree >>>> > > > with >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Jeff > > that >> the distinction between >>>> > > > "business service' and >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > "SOA > > service" >> needs to be made. In >>>> general I think >>>> > > > simpler >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > is > > better, but as >> long as the grammar is >>>> > > > corrected, I'd >>>> > > > be >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > fine > > with Boris's >> additions. I don't have >>>> > > > any problems >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > with Bob's > > minor rewording, >> but i don't >>>> see why he >>>> > > > dropped >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Boris's > > additions.. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> I'll look at it again in the morning. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Cheers, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Rex >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Lublinsky, Boris wrote: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> You through away all changes that >>>> > > > were suggested >>>> > > > after this >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > initial >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> one? >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> From: Ellinger, Robert S (IS) >>>> > > > >>> > [mailto:robert.ellinger@ngc.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 >>>> 6:41 PM >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> To: rexb@starbourne.com >>>> <x-msg://15/rexb@starbourne.com> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>; >>>> > > > >>>> > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] intro >>>> discussion for >>>> > > > Wednesday >>>> > > > >>> > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the >>>> > > > cusp between IT >>>> > > > and >>>> > > > >>>> > > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> I'd recommend some minor rewording... >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> -----Original >>>> > > > >>>> > > Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> From: Rex Brooks >>>> [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 >>>> 1:16 PM >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> To: rexb@starbourne.com >>>> <x-msg://15/rexb@starbourne.com> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Cc: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com>; >>>> > > > >>>> > > soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] intro >>>> discussion for >>>> > > > Wednesday >>>> > > > >>> > [was: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> [soa-rm-ra] positioning SOA on the >>>> > > > cusp between IT >>>> > > > and >>>> > > > >>>> > > business] >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> First pass at the Section 1.2 as >>>> > > an additional >>>> > > > paragraph >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > after >>> the first paragraph. I include >>>> the first >>>> > > > paragraph >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > and > > the >>> start of the current second >>>> > > > paragraph here for >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the > > context: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> 1.2 Service Oriented Archtecture - >>>> > > An Ecosystem >>>> > > > Perspective >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Many systems cannot be understood >>>> by a simple >>>> > > > decomposition >>>> > > > >>>> > > into >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > parts >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> and subsystems -- in particular when >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> there are many >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > interactions between the parts. For example, a >>>> > > > >>>>>> biological >>> >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > ecosystem is a self-sustaining association of >>>> plants, >>>> > > > animals, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> and the hysical environment in >>>> > > which they live. >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Undestanding > > an >>> ecosystem often >>>> > > requires a holistic >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > perspective rather > > than one >>> focusing on the >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> system's individual parts. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> The SOA Ecosystem described in this >>>> document >>>> > > > occupies the >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > >>> > boundary between Business and IT. >>>> > > It is neither >>>> > > > wholly IT >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > nor >>> > wholly Business, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> but is of both worlds. Neither >>>> > > Business nor IT >>>> > > > >>> > completely own, >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > govern >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. Both >>>> sets of >>>> > > > concerns must >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > be > >>> accommodated for the SOA Ecosystem to >>>> > > > fulfill its > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > purposes. > >>> Business >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> needs drive the development of >>>> > > > services delivered >>>> > > > through >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > IT, > >>> providing the capability that >>>> satisfies those >>>> > > > needs. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > This is > >>> the business value of SOA. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> From a holistic perspective, a >>>> > > > SOA-based system is >>>> > > > a > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > network > of >>> independent services, machines, >>>> > > > the people who >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > operate, > affect, >>> use and govern those >>>> > > > services as well as >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > ... >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Cheers, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Rex >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Rex Brooks wrote: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> Hi Ken, Everyone, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> I believe that the email you are >>>> > > > looking for is >>>> > > > your >>>> > > > >>> > reply to >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Frank: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm-ra/email/archives >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> / >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> 200906/msg00012.html >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> This is what Frank Wrote Jun 14, >>>> > > > 2009, at 7:12 >>>> > > > PM: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> "I sympathize with the sentiment >>>> > > > behind this. We >>>> > > > have >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>> > > consistently identified SOA as >>>> being at the >>>> > > > boundary >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > between > >>>> > business and IT. It >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> is >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> neither wholly IT nor wholly >>>> > > > business but is of >>>> > > > both >>>> > > > >>> > worlds. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> That represents potentially one of >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> SOA's greatest >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > opportunities; >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > and >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> the source of its weaknesses: >>>> > > > neither business >>>> > > > nor IT can >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > completely >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> own/grok SOA. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> Frank" >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> The email referenced above >>>> > > > contains the most or >>>> > > > all of the >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > thread >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > "Are >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> we being ignored?" >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> I'm not sure we would help >>>> > > > ourselves if we say >>>> > > > more than >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > "The >>>> SOA Ecosystem described in this >>>> document >>>> > > > occupies >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the > > boundary >>>> between Business and IT. >>>> > > It is neither >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > wholly IT > > nor wholly >>>> Business, but is >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> of both worlds. Neither Business >>>> nor IT >>>> > > > completely own, >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > govern >>>> and manage this SOA Ecosystem. >>>> > > > Both sets of >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > concerns > > MUST be >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > accommodated >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> for the SOA Ecosystem to fulfill >>>> > > > its purposes." >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> Cheers, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> Rex >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> Laskey, Ken wrote: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> This is a reminder that this >>>> week we are >>>> > > > scheduled to >>>> > > > >>>> > > discuss >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > adding >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> the text on the overlap of SOA >>>> > > > and business. >>>> > > > Below is >>>> > > > >>> > text >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > suggested >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> by Michael Poulin and there is >>>> > > > another email >>>> > > > from >>>> > > > >>> > Boris with >>>> > > > >>>> > > a >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > lot >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> of >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> idea that would need to be >>>> condensed and >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > added/substituted/combined. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Let's get the discussion far >>>> > > > enough along that >>>> > > > we can >>>> > > > >>> > bring >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > this >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > to >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> (close to) closure by the end of >>>> > > > Wednesday's >>>> > > > call. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> I remember there was an email >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> where Frank wrote >>>> > > > something >>>> > > > >>>> > > very >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > crisp >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> on this subject that I replied was >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> exactly what >>>> > > > we >>>> > > > >>> > needed to >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > say. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Unfortunately, I have no idea >>>> > > > when that email >>>> > > > thread >>>> > > > >>>> > > occurred. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > If >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> someone could find it, I think >>>> > > > it would be a >>>> > > > good >>>> > > > >>>> > > contribution >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > to >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> discussion. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Back to Mike's suggested text, >>>> > > > two immediate >>>> > > > things >>>> > > > >>> > come to >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > mind. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 1. Section 1.4 is a discussion of >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the views and >>>> > > > this >>>> > > > >>> > is not >>>> > > > >>>> > > a >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > view >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> to >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> be added as 1.4.4. I think it >>>> fits after >>>> > > > section 1.2, >>>> > > > >>>> > > possibly >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > as >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> another short section. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 2. It is not obvious to me what >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the phrase "the >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > similarity > of >>>>> the principles of the >>>> > > Value Networks > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > business model" > means. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Ken >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> - >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> ------ >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Dr. Kenneth Laskey >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> 703-983-7934 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 703-983-1379 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com> >>>> > > > [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] >>>> > > > Sent: > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > >>>>> > Thursday, September 10, 2009 11:31 AM >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> To: >>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Subject: [soa-rm-ra] >>>> > > positioning SOA on the >>>> > > > cusp >>>> > > > >>> > between IT >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > and >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > business >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Hi Folks, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> I join Francis and Boris in >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> suggestion that SOA >>>> > > > RA's >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > Introduction >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> would benefit from adding a >>>> couple of >>>> > > > paragraphs on the >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> business aspects of SOA >>>> positioned across >>>> > > > Business and >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > IT. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> In the previous message I >>>> > > > composed a few words >>>> > > > for a >>>> > > > >>> > small >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > section >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> on >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> this topic and propose to >>>> > > > discuss them as an >>>> > > > initial >>>> > > > >>> > draft >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > during >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> next (or following) Telecom. >>>> > > > Proposed text may >>>> > > > be >>>> > > > >>> > found in >>>> > > > >>>> > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > middle >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> of this message chain. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Any suggestions? >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> - Michael >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> - >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> ----------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Subject: RE: todos for PR2 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> From: mpoulin@usa.com >>>> <x-msg://15/mpoulin@usa.com> To: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> >>>> > > > >>>> > > Date: >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > 8 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > Sep >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 2009 16:21:26 -0000 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> - >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> ----------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> "positioning SOA on the cusp >>>> > > between IT and >>>> > > > business" is >>>> > > > >>>> > > what >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > I >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > write >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> a lot for last few months. So, let >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> me propose a >>>> > > > >>> > strawman for >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > this >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> text: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 1.4.4 Business Value of the >>>> > > > Service Oriented >>>> > > > Architecture >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> A Service Oriented Architecture >>>> realizes >>>> > > > principles >>>> > > > >>> > of the >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > concept >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> of >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> service orientation in the >>>> sphere of >>>> > > > architecture. The >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > architecture >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> in the organisation comprises >>>> > > both business >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > architecture > > and >>>>> technical architecture >>>> > > > >>>>> of the systems >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > [ref. to TOGAF > > 9.0]. >>>>> While SOA-based >>>> > > > systems address >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > aspects of the > > technical >>>>> architecture, >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> similarity of the principles of >>>> the Value >>>> > > > Networks >>>> > > > >>> > business >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > model >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > and >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> SOA allows us to see SOA as a >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> conceptual bridge >>>> > > > between >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> corporate Business and IT. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Noticed similarity opens up new >>>> > > > possibilities >>>> > > > for >>>> > > > >>> > Business >>>> > > > >>>> > > and >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > IT >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > to >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> construct service-oriented >>>> > > customer-centric >>>> > > > convergent >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > solutions >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > for >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> business problems. Service >>>> > > > orientation enables >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > operational > >>>>> and technical flexibility, >>>> > > > >>>>> which contributes >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > to business > >>>>> efficiency the >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> great deal. The Service >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Orientation concept has >>>> > > > the > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > potential >>>>> not only to align IT with >>>> > > > Business, but also to >>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > align the >>>>> entire >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > company >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> with the market dynamics. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> If the ideas in this writing are >>>> > > > acceptable, I >>>> > > > will >>>> > > > >>> > work on >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> wording. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> - Michael Poulin >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> - >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> ----------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> From: Francis McCabe To: >>>> > > > >>> > "soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> <x-msg://15/soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org> RA" >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 19:24:08 >>>> -0700 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> - >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> ----------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 1. As Boris alluded to, I think >>>> that a >>>> > > > paragraph or two >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > in > >>>>> the introduction positioning SOA >>>> on the cusp >>>> > > > between >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > IT and > >>>>> business could be very >>>> > > useful. It is also >>>> > > > pretty >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > faithful > to >>>>> the RAF! >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 2. The concept of interaction >>>> in the RM >>>> > > > referred > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > *everything* >>>>> involved in interacting with >>>> > > > services. For >>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > RA we have to >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > unpack >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> that some. This is the >>>> foundation for the >>>> > > > multi-leveled >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > concept >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > of >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> joint action. This should go in >>>> > > > Section 3.1. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 3. I think that Danny's security >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> diagram should >>>> > > > be > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > updated > >>>>> and incorporated. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 4. The trust and willingness >>>> > > > stuff should go >>>> > > > in. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> 5. It would be good if we could >>>> > > > go through the >>>> > > > text >>>> > > > >>> > bolding >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > defined >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> concepts. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> - >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> ----------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> - >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> ----------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> [Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | >>>> > > > [Thread Next] | >>>> > > > [Date >>>> > > > >>> > Next] -- >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > [Date >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> Index] | [Thread Index] | [List >>>> Home] >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> -- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Rex Brooks >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> President, CEO >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Starbourne Communications Design >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Berkeley, CA 94702 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> Tel: 510-898-0670 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> - To unsubscribe from this mail >>>> > > list, you must >>>> > > > leave the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > OASIS >>> TC that generates this mail. Follow >>>> > > > >>>>>>> this link to >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > all > > your TCs >>> in OASIS >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> at: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> > > >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> The information contained in this >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> communication may >>>> > > > be >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > CONFIDENTIAL >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> and is intended only for the use of >>>> > > > the recipient(s) >>>> > > > named >>>> > > > >>>> > > above. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > If >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> you are not the intended recipient, >>>> > > > you are hereby >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > notified > > that >> any dissemination, >>>> > > > >>>>> distribution, or copying >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > of this >> > > communication, or any >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > of >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> its contents, is strictly >>>> > > prohibited. If you have >>>> > > > received >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > this >> communication in error, please >>>> > > > notify the sender >>>> > > > and >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > >> > > delete/destroy >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> original message and any copy of it >>>> from your >>>> > > > computer >>>> > > > >>> > or paper >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > files. >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>>> > > > > > >>> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> -- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Rex Brooks >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> President, CEO >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Starbourne Communications Design >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Berkeley, CA 94702 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> Tel: 510-898-0670 >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mail list, >>>> > > > you must leave >>>> > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > OASIS > > TC >> that generates this mail. Follow >>>> > > > this link to >>>> > > > all >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > your > TCs > in >> OASIS at: >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.ph >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> p >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>>> > > > > > >> >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>>> > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > -- >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Rex Brooks >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > President, CEO >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Starbourne Communications Design >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Berkeley, CA 94702 >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > Tel: 510-898-0670 >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > The information contained in this >>>> > > communication may be >>>> > > > >>>> > > CONFIDENTIAL >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > and >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > is intended only for the use of the >>>> > > recipient(s) named >>>> > > > >>> > above. If >>>> > > > >>>> > > you >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > are not the intended recipient, you are >>>> > > > hereby notified >>>> > > > >>> > that any >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > dissemination, distribution, or copying of >>>> this >>>> > > > >>> > communication, or >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > any >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > of >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you >>>> > > > >>>>>>> have received >>>> > > > this >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > communication in error, please notify the >>>> sender and >>>> > > > >>>> > > delete/destroy >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > the >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > original message and any copy of it from >>>> > > > your computer or >>>> > > > paper >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > files. >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you >>>> > > must leave the >>>> > > > OASIS TC >>>> > > > >>>> > > that >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > generates this mail. Follow this link to >>>> > > > all your TCs in >>>> > > > >>> > OASIS at: >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > -- >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > An Excellent Credit Score is 750 >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>> treport.com/pm/default.aspx?pagetypeid=homepage62&sc=669615&bcd=FOOTER5% >>>> >>>> <http://treport.com/pm/default.aspx?pagetypeid=homepage62&sc=669615&bcd=FOOTER5%> >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > 20> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > -- >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > An Excellent Credit Score is 750 >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must >>>> > > > leave the OASIS >>>> > > > >>> > TC that >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > generates this mail. Follow this link to all >>>> > > your TCs in >>>> > > > >>> > OASIS at: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> > > >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > The information contained in this >>>> communication may be >>>> > > > >>> > CONFIDENTIAL >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > and is intended only for the use of the >>>> > > > recipient(s) named >>>> > > > above. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > If you are not the intended recipient, you >>>> are hereby >>>> > > > >>> > notified that >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > any dissemination, distribution, or copying >>>> of this >>>> > > > >>> > communication, >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > or any of its contents, is strictly >>>> > > > prohibited. If you have >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > received this communication in error, please >>>> notify the >>>> > > > >>> > sender and >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > delete/destroy the original message and any >>>> > > > copy of it from >>>> > > > your >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > computer or paper files. >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must >>>> > > > leave the OASIS >>>> > > > >>> > TC that >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > generates this mail. Follow this link to all >>>> > > your TCs in >>>> > > > >>> > OASIS at: >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> > > >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > -- >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > An Excellent Credit Score is 750 >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>> <http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;216722518;39159097;q?http://www.freecredi >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> >>>> > > > >>>> treport.com/pm/default.aspx?pagetypeid=homepage62&sc=669615&bcd=FOOTER5% >>>> >>>> <http://treport.com/pm/default.aspx?pagetypeid=homepage62&sc=669615&bcd=FOOTER5%> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > 20> >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > << bus and tech 2.doc >> >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > -- >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > An Excellent Credit Score is 750 >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must >>>> > > > leave the OASIS TC >>>> > > > >>> > that >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > generates this mail. Follow this link to all >>>> > > > your TCs in OASIS >>>> > > > at: >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > > >>>> > > An Excellent Credit Score is 750 >>>> > > > >>>> > > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > The information contained in this communication may be >>>> > > > >>> > CONFIDENTIAL and >>>> > > > >>>> > > is intended only for the use of the recipient(s) >>>> > > > named above. If >>>> > > > you >>>> > > > >>>> > > are not the intended recipient, you are hereby >>>> > > > notified that any >>>> > > > >>>> > > dissemination, distribution, or copying of this >>>> > > > communication, or >>>> > > > >>> > any of >>>> > > > >>>> > > its contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have >>>> > > > received this >>>> > > > >>>> > > communication in error, please notify the sender and >>>> > > > >>> > delete/destroy the >>>> > > > >>>> > > original message and any copy of it from your >>>> > > computer or paper >>>> > > > >>> > files. >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > -- >>>> > > > >>> > An Excellent Credit Score is 750 >>>> > > > >>> > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >>> > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the >>>> > > > OASIS TC that >>>> > > > >>> > generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs >>>> > > > in OASIS at: >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >>> > -- >>>> > > > >>> > Come to Adobe MAX 2009 and sign up for the LiveCycle >>>> Bundle - >>>> > > > >>> > http://max.adobe.com/sessions/livecycle/?sdid=EUQZE >>>> > > > >>> > Twitter: duancechaos >>>> > > > >>> > >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> -- >>>> > > > >> Rex Brooks >>>> > > > >> President, CEO >>>> > > > >> Starbourne Communications Design >>>> > > > >> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >>>> > > > >> Berkeley, CA 94702 >>>> > > > >> Tel: 510-898-0670 >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> The information contained in this communication may be >>>> > > > >> CONFIDENTIAL and is intended only for the use of the >>>> > > > >> recipient(s) named above. If you are not the intended >>>> > > > >> recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, >>>> > > > >> distribution, or copying of this communication, or any of its >>>> > > > >> contents, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this >>>> > > > >> communication in error, please notify the sender and >>>> > > > >> delete/destroy the original message and any copy of it >>>> from your >>>> > > > >> computer or paper files. >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > > >> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the >>>> OASIS TC that >>>> > > > >> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in >>>> OASIS at: >>>> > > > >> >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > > >> >>>> > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > An Excellent Credit Score is 750 >>>> > > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS >>>> TC that >>>> > > generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >>>> > > >>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > Come to Adobe MAX 2009 and sign up for the LiveCycle Bundle - >>>> > > http://max.adobe.com/sessions/livecycle/?sdid=EUQZE >>>> > > Twitter: duancechaos >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > An Excellent Credit Score is 750 >>>> > See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Come to Adobe MAX 2009 and sign up for the LiveCycle Bundle - >>>> > http://max.adobe.com/sessions/livecycle/?sdid=EUQZE >>>> > Twitter: duancechaos >>>> > >>>> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> An Excellent Credit Score is 750 >>>> See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- Come to Adobe MAX 2009 and sign up for the LiveCycle Bundle - >>>> _http://max.adobe.com/sessions/livecycle/?sdid=EUQZE >>>> _Twitter: duancechaos >>>> >>>> >> -- Rex Brooks >> President, CEO >> Starbourne Communications Design >> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >> Berkeley, CA 94702 >> Tel: 510-898-0670 >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >> > > > > > -- Rex Brooks President, CEO Starbourne Communications Design GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison Berkeley, CA 94702 Tel: 510-898-0670
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