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Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?


Interesting, it seems that we finally collided with REST (which I expected long ago).

I prefer REST to correct their ontology than us doing any work in this area. We can finally end-up that REST/ROA are not services but applications with sophisticated Web-based interfaces. For example, if a database provides a driver based on Web Services (like before on CORBA), does it make it a services? My answer is NO. The same is with the case where the driver is just a Web HTTP with GET/POST - it is still a database but REST would claim it a REST service - absurd.

- Michael



-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>; peter@peterfbrown.com <peter@peterfbrown.com>; mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov <jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov>; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 2:32 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?

I talked to Peter about it as well.
On one hand you are right – service is a kind of resource when people are talking about it, but… my problem is a specific meaning of resource implied by REST/ROA. Resource is not only identifiable entity, but is also an entity that provides a certain set of CRUDish methods – GET, POST… So there is still quite a few discussions REST vs SOA. Resources as an English word are applicable, bur Resources as ROA are not. This is a typical problem with technology – words are hijacked and given a different meaning. If we are using resources, then we need to explain, that those are NOT REST resources.
 
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 6:15 AM
To: peter@peterfbrown.com; 'Lublinsky, Boris'; mpoulin@usa.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
I’m not sure what the problem is in saying service = resource.  Last I checked we said “A resource is any identifiable entity that has value to a stakeholder.”  A service would certainly seem to fit there.  Sorry I haven’t read the other material, but what is the harm?
 
One other thing for those working management.  I sent the following to Michael while we were talking about testing and about composition.  I think it is relevant to keep in mind for management too.
 
<perspective>
One other difference I think I see in our perspectives is that you tend to work within an “enterprise” and I tend to work in an enterprise that is explicitly a collection of enterprises.  So I have 16 separate intelligence agencies, 5 separate military entities, and numerous other government organizations.  They all expect to be service providers and service consumers.  There is no single “top” to the hierarchy, i.e. no single CIO or similar figure.  This ecosystem requires all the flexibility and consequent challenges we ever talk about with SOA.  On top of that, lives (both participants and non-participants) are at risk in many outcomes.  I think this also impacts our discussions of composition.
</perspective>
 
Ken
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Kenneth Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305              phone: 703-983-7934
7515 Colshire Drive                                    fax:        703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508
 
From: Peter F Brown [mailto:peter@peterfbrown.com]
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 1:57 AM
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris'; mpoulin@usa.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
+1 on service != resource. Jeff and I worked on the action and state parts of section 3 and relating them back to service, which we barely mention. I’m still, personally, in favour of thinking of service as a ‘mechanism’ but we have to find ways to express that more clearly still….
Peter
 
From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com]
Sent: Thursday, 13 January, 2011 18:39
To: mpoulin@usa.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
A lot of comments inside.
The big one services are not resources lets stop using these two terms intercheangeably.
 
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 2:16 PM
To: boris.lublinsky@navteq.com
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Sure, here you are.
- Michael
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 13, 2011 4:50 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
Oops,
I deleted it in anticipation of the full thing. Can you resend? Please?
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 10:45 AM
To: boris.lublinsky@navteq.com
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Oh! I cannot stand such argument. There are two things in my paper: several fragments from different parts of the doc (with related line numbers) - you can ignore all of them & the FULL section on Management Concept - as it was, commented, modified and extended. In this case, you can take it The Gospel from RAF & Michael; all context is in there.
 
Cheers,
- Michael
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 13, 2011 2:09 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
Understood,
But it still presumes knowing what was there. It’s like you can always grab enough quotes from Bible to prove that God does not exist
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 6:48 AM
To: boris.lublinsky@navteq.com
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Boris, I have not merged the changed texts back to the full document yet. I'do it based on the Jeff's comments soon. Sorry about this. I tried to extract enough context for each change to justify it.
 
- Michael
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 13, 2011 3:36 am
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
Michael,
This is really hard to read.
Can you send a doc with the full content
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:53 AM
To: jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Hi Jeff,
 
here are two docs attached - one is the commented version and another one is the version with the comments 'accepted'. What I did, I tried to merge the Dan's version with my comments. I think that the diagram to be updated again based on the Dan's additions.
 
Please, let me know if I am moving into the agreed direction.
 
Regards,
- Michael
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Estefan, Jeff A (3100) <jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:28 pm
Subject: RE: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
Michael,
 
I really appreciate taking time to go through the Mgmt model as currently 
articulated in the RAF but we knew going in that the focus there was by and 
large too focused on systems management and so that is why we gave Dan Heston 
the opportunity to write something up, which he did and I've attached to this 
note.  This work was done back in Sept of last year and there are a few e-mail 
threads on the topic plus some discussion on the calls, but then the topic was 
unfortunately dropped.   Nevertheless, I will review your recommended updates as 
they look quite well thought out.  In the meantime, if you could review Dan's 
draft update, that would be much appreciated.  It is still mission visual (UML) 
models.
 
Thanks again!
 
 - Jeff
 
________________________________________
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 7:48 AM
To: Estefan, Jeff A (3100)
Subject: Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Jeffrey,
 
as promised, I have reviewed the Management Model section and attached my notes.
 
Since we deal with Management Concept, it influences other Concepts in the 
document. This required me to look through the entire document and review every 
occasion where management is mentioned. As a result, I have several notes and 
proposals for changes in other sections, e.g. in Governance sections, there are 
references to TOGAF 8.1 which are outdate already due to TOGAF 9.0 available for 
a year already.
 
Thus, I have extracted all related text fragments into separate document and 
modified them as needed. The line numbers have been preserved and match the line 
numbers in the original document. I’ve excluded the fragments that I suggest are 
correct, do not require modifications and do not raise questions.
 
I have edited the text on two computers and the side notes marked OP... are mine 
as well as MP.
 
In addition to the text changes, I put some side comments with explanations of 
my changes and questions. Plus, I added a few small sections such as Service 
Configuration Manageability, Contracts ( in the Management Contracts and 
Policies) and new term 'Solution' in the glossary. I've put all manageability 
items into the new diagram (embedded).
 
I am looking for your comments and an advice on how to proceed from this point: 
will this work go under your supervision or independently, like Peter/Chris do.
 
Regards,
- Michael
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Estefan, Jeff A (3100) <jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 7, 2011 7:14 pm
Subject: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Michael,
 
Are you interested in helping with the Management Model?  I was planning on 
reviewing what was originally written in the RAF, which is very sparse and 
largely focused on system management vs. services as managed entities and then 
look over what Dan H. put together.  That material is missing visual models.
 
I feel this is far too important a concept, particularly its relationship to 
governance, to simply “punt” and say we are not going to include it in our RAF 
work.  I see it as even more paramount than the Testing Model although I know 
you and Ken are making headway there.  If we can tackle both, great, but we 
simply cannot punt on Management and only include Testing.
 
Just let me know your thoughts.
 
Regards…
 
- Jeff
=

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