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Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?


I disagree that service is the action only. It is an entity that capable of performing actions on capability. A mechanism is an entity, action is not a mechanism semantically.

- Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter F Brown <peter@peterfbrown.com>
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris' <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>; mpoulin@usa.com; klaskey@mitre.org; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 7:04 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?

Boris, can you clarify what you disagree with?
I agree with you that service is an action (‘mechanism’) while resource is a noun…
 
Peter
 
From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com]
Sent: Friday, 14 January, 2011 10:40
To: peter@peterfbrown.com; mpoulin@usa.com; klaskey@mitre.org; boris.lublinsky@navteq.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Sorry, but I do disagree,
The simplistic differentiation is that service is a verb, while resource is a noun
 
From: Peter F Brown [mailto:peter@peterfbrown.com]
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 12:08 PM
To: mpoulin@usa.com; klaskey@mitre.org; boris.lublinsky@navteq.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Agreed. My point too: to take your example, a database is not itself a service, but it can ‘brought to bear’ as a service by the use of the resources that it manages… a different issue – that’s also why, in my ‘onion’ diagram, the capability is at the core – it’s the part that is ‘furthest away’ from the ecosystem stakeholder: the stakeholder ‘service interaction’ (in an informal sense) is through the system to its capabilities…
 
We have some careful juggling to do, but I think we’re getting there…
Peter
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Friday, 14 January, 2011 06:02
To: klaskey@mitre.org; peter@peterfbrown.com; boris.lublinsky@navteq.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Ken,
 
currently we have resource INCLUDES service. I do agree with this and try to convince Boris to look wider on the issue. I guess that the root of the "blanket statement that service != resource" is in technology where resource is usually a data source (repeat, I guess here only). With such viewpoint, we certainly do not want a database to be called a service. However, if a resource has wider meaning (as we have) than a data source, I do not see any problems in saying resource in the cases where we need to generalize but still include service in the case.
 
I think we are on the same ground here, Ken.
 
- Michael
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
To: mpoulin@usa.com; peter@peterfbrown.com; boris.lublinsky@navteq.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 1:30 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
Michael,
 
First, and without having read the text, I can certainly see our discussion of management focusing on services and not resources in general.  What I didn’t understand was a blanket statement that service != resource.  I can limit a discussion to services, but sometimes lumping services into the discussion of resources is useful.
 
As for single vs. multiple enterprises, I thought I sensed the assumption of a level of top-down control that typically is outside the realm of the organizations with which I work.  Those organizations are committed to building a services enterprise and interacting,  and I need to ensure that our work also supports them.
 
Ken
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Kenneth Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305              phone: 703-983-7934
7515 Colshire Drive                                    fax:        703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 8:16 AM
To: Laskey, Ken; peter@peterfbrown.com; boris.lublinsky@navteq.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
I have explained in my posts to Jeff, that, as Ken referred, resource includes service by the definition we use currently in the RAF. However, in several places  (in management) it makes sense to talk about 'services' rather than about 'resources' and I made several changes with this regard in the draft sent to Jeff for the review. 
- Michael
 
P.S. I'm still wondering what in my words caused Ken to believe that I limited my approach by the enterprise only. When I worked in Fidelity, we had the same multi-enterprise conglomerate and the SOA issues about cross-enterprise governance ans management are quite familiar to me. ( I do not work for Fidelity anymore, Ken, and my status in OASIS is an independent member)
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
To: peter@peterfbrown.com; 'Lublinsky, Boris' <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>; mpoulin@usa.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Fri, Jan 14, 2011 12:15 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
I’m not sure what the problem is in saying service = resource.  Last I checked we said “A resource is any identifiable entity that has value to a stakeholder.”  A service would certainly seem to fit there.  Sorry I haven’t read the other material, but what is the harm?
 
One other thing for those working management.  I sent the following to Michael while we were talking about testing and about composition.  I think it is relevant to keep in mind for management too.
 
<perspective>
One other difference I think I see in our perspectives is that you tend to work within an “enterprise” and I tend to work in an enterprise that is explicitly a collection of enterprises.  So I have 16 separate intelligence agencies, 5 separate military entities, and numerous other government organizations.  They all expect to be service providers and service consumers.  There is no single “top” to the hierarchy, i.e. no single CIO or similar figure.  This ecosystem requires all the flexibility and consequent challenges we ever talk about with SOA.  On top of that, lives (both participants and non-participants) are at risk in many outcomes.  I think this also impacts our discussions of composition.
</perspective>
 
Ken
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Kenneth Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305              phone: 703-983-7934
7515 Colshire Drive                                    fax:        703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508
 
From: Peter F Brown [mailto:peter@peterfbrown.com]
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2011 1:57 AM
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris'; mpoulin@usa.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
+1 on service != resource. Jeff and I worked on the action and state parts of section 3 and relating them back to service, which we barely mention. I’m still, personally, in favour of thinking of service as a ‘mechanism’ but we have to find ways to express that more clearly still….
Peter
 
From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com]
Sent: Thursday, 13 January, 2011 18:39
To: mpoulin@usa.com; jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
A lot of comments inside.
The big one services are not resources lets stop using these two terms intercheangeably.
 
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 2:16 PM
To: boris.lublinsky@navteq.com
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Sure, here you are.
- Michael
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 13, 2011 4:50 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
Oops,
I deleted it in anticipation of the full thing. Can you resend? Please?
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 10:45 AM
To: boris.lublinsky@navteq.com
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Oh! I cannot stand such argument. There are two things in my paper: several fragments from different parts of the doc (with related line numbers) - you can ignore all of them & the FULL section on Management Concept - as it was, commented, modified and extended. In this case, you can take it The Gospel from RAF & Michael; all context is in there.
 
Cheers,
- Michael
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 13, 2011 2:09 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
Understood,
But it still presumes knowing what was there. It’s like you can always grab enough quotes from Bible to prove that God does not exist
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 6:48 AM
To: boris.lublinsky@navteq.com
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Boris, I have not merged the changed texts back to the full document yet. I'do it based on the Jeff's comments soon. Sorry about this. I tried to extract enough context for each change to justify it.
 
- Michael
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Thu, Jan 13, 2011 3:36 am
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
Michael,
This is really hard to read.
Can you send a doc with the full content
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 10:53 AM
To: jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [soa-rm-ra] Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Hi Jeff,
 
here are two docs attached - one is the commented version and another one is the version with the comments 'accepted'. What I did, I tried to merge the Dan's version with my comments. I think that the diagram to be updated again based on the Dan's additions.
 
Please, let me know if I am moving into the agreed direction.
 
Regards,
- Michael
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Estefan, Jeff A (3100) <jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Sun, Jan 9, 2011 9:28 pm
Subject: RE: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
Michael,
 
I really appreciate taking time to go through the Mgmt model as currently 
articulated in the RAF but we knew going in that the focus there was by and 
large too focused on systems management and so that is why we gave Dan Heston 
the opportunity to write something up, which he did and I've attached to this 
note.  This work was done back in Sept of last year and there are a few e-mail 
threads on the topic plus some discussion on the calls, but then the topic was 
unfortunately dropped.   Nevertheless, I will review your recommended updates as 
they look quite well thought out.  In the meantime, if you could review Dan's 
draft update, that would be much appreciated.  It is still mission visual (UML) 
models.
 
Thanks again!
 
 - Jeff
 
________________________________________
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 7:48 AM
To: Estefan, Jeff A (3100)
Subject: Re: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Jeffrey,
 
as promised, I have reviewed the Management Model section and attached my notes.
 
Since we deal with Management Concept, it influences other Concepts in the 
document. This required me to look through the entire document and review every 
occasion where management is mentioned. As a result, I have several notes and 
proposals for changes in other sections, e.g. in Governance sections, there are 
references to TOGAF 8.1 which are outdate already due to TOGAF 9.0 available for 
a year already.
 
Thus, I have extracted all related text fragments into separate document and 
modified them as needed. The line numbers have been preserved and match the line 
numbers in the original document. I’ve excluded the fragments that I suggest are 
correct, do not require modifications and do not raise questions.
 
I have edited the text on two computers and the side notes marked OP... are mine 
as well as MP.
 
In addition to the text changes, I put some side comments with explanations of 
my changes and questions. Plus, I added a few small sections such as Service 
Configuration Manageability, Contracts ( in the Management Contracts and 
Policies) and new term 'Solution' in the glossary. I've put all manageability 
items into the new diagram (embedded).
 
I am looking for your comments and an advice on how to proceed from this point: 
will this work go under your supervision or independently, like Peter/Chris do.
 
Regards,
- Michael
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Estefan, Jeff A (3100) <jeffrey.a.estefan@jpl.nasa.gov>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 7, 2011 7:14 pm
Subject: [SOA-RAF] Interested in helping with Mgmt Model?
 
Michael,
 
Are you interested in helping with the Management Model?  I was planning on 
reviewing what was originally written in the RAF, which is very sparse and 
largely focused on system management vs. services as managed entities and then 
look over what Dan H. put together.  That material is missing visual models.
 
I feel this is far too important a concept, particularly its relationship to 
governance, to simply “punt” and say we are not going to include it in our RAF 
work.  I see it as even more paramount than the Testing Model although I know 
you and Ken are making headway there.  If we can tackle both, great, but we 
simply cannot punt on Management and only include Testing.
 
Just let me know your thoughts.
 
Regards…
 
- Jeff
=

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