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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions


Your getting the book and you now owning the book are public.  The book itself is a book.  You writing your name on your book when you receive it is private.

 

Ken

 

From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 5:02 PM
To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

 

Agree, "The ... delivery is RWE for anyone involved" but the book itself is not a part of this RWE because it is my private thing.

 

Or, there are no 'private' and 'non-shared' things in SOA ecosystem?

 

- Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
To: mpoulin@usa.com; 'Bashioum, Christopher D' <cbashioum@mitre.org>; boris.lublinsky@navteq.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:55 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

The book delivery is RWE for anyone involved for which the book delivery or some part of the process is of interest.  The delivery car amortization is RWE for those dealing with the car financing.  Both are RWE, although likely unrelated, for the business entity delivering the book.

 

Ken

 

From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:44 PM
To: Bashioum, Christopher D; Laskey, Ken; boris.lublinsky@navteq.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

 

Chris, why do you think that appearance of the book in the postal package (i.e. nobody knows it is the book) at your doorstep is a RWE (" if I want a book to show up on my doorstep, I may need to go through several interactions or method calls to get that RWE")? According to Ken, the delivery car amortization is the RWE, but the book is the private Result of the service known to you - customer - and to the service only, i.e. it is not a RWE.

 

If RWE includes only public/shared things - we are diving into absurd, don't we? So, if it is me who does not see the forest behinds the trees then, probably, these trees are Sequia while the forest comprises only Karelian Birch

- Michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Bashioum, Christopher D <cbashioum@mitre.org>
To: Laskey, Ken <klaskey@mitre.org>; 'Lublinsky, Boris' <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>; mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Wed, Jan 19, 2011 8:52 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

I think there are some subtleties that still need to be teased out.  In order to try and get to the concept, I will speak very concretely.

 

First, a given RWE is not necessarily triggered by a method call.  turns out that a sequence of successful method calls will likely be necessary, and different sequences may result in different "aspects?" of a given service.  So, if I want a book to show up on my doorstep, I may need to go through several interactions or method calls to get that RWE, all of which may be part of the same interface.  This is what Ken was referring to when he spoke of process model on the TC call today. 

 

So ... I think I invoke a service, and invoking a service may be accomplished by sending multiple messages to multiple "methods" in a service interface.  Each message to each method may trigger a corresponding action, but the RWE I'm after is the end result of the aggregate of the actions.  Note that an error code, in my mind, is not a RWE, it is an error and I didn't get the RWE. 

 

In some cases, the information returned is the RWE.  Using the calculator example, let's suppose the calculator has 3 methods.  The first takes operand a, the second takes operand b, and the third takes the operator (+, -, * or /).  The RWE I want is the result of the aggregate of the method calls.  If I get an error code because I send a letter instead of a number for one of the operands, I won't get the RWE.  The RWE is in this case the return of information.

 

One could suggest that RWE is, at least in part, in the eye of the consumer.

 

Another thought ... I think we have to be careful in our conceptual model to keep distinct the difference  between a service and a "good" vs. "bad" service.  So ... if I design a "bad" service, is it still a service?   This pokes at the essence of what a service "is".

 

As for the interface, it turns out that message processing logic is more than an interface.  The RM tries to distinguish the message processing logic from the business logic.  You really need both to have a service.  If you have a great set of business logic, but nobody can get to it, you don't have a service.  If you have a great set of message processing logic, but no business logic, you don't have a service. 

 

I really liked Jeff's summary on the TC today, where he talked about interaction being all throughout the lifecycle and ecosystem, but "service activity" begins at the point that the consumer is actually invoking the service.  The interactions must occur prior to the activity, and is where the ecosystem stuff comes into play.  In which case, the service action must take into account the activity and process models of the service that the RM points out. 

 

 

From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:10 PM
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris'; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

 

Is there any major damage by my using red wording inline below?

 

As for importance of RWE, it is what someone wants and why they use service.  The RWE of a calculator is the result it displays.

 

Ken

 

From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 2:56 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

 

Let’s try differently:

·         In accepted terms a service has an interface(s) – Service interface

·         Service interface has method(s) – Service methods.  Service interface defines message exchange with service

·         A service method (not a service) can be invoked.  Message to service Interface triggers service action through corresponding private actions

·         Service method provides an execution result.  Triggering a service action lead to results.

·         An execution result can either change a service state or return an error  Public  Results are changes in states or a return of information

·         A change in a service state may (or not) produce RWE  Changes to public states produce RWE

So far this is excepted set of thing that most of practitioners will relate to

Now here is a list of questions:

·         How is service action relates to the above? is it a service method invocation?

·         Why do we care so much about RWE? A calculator is a useful service with no RWE

 

From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:41 PM
To: mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

 

Let’s try it this way:  a service action (by which I mean an action from the Action Model) results in the change of public and possibly private states.  The change in public states is RWE, the change in private states is unknown to the SOA ecosystem unless these become public at a later time.

 

Ken

 

From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 2:12 PM
To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

 

Ken,

 

I gave this example as an evidence of inconsistency and brocken/forgotten dependency between definitions.

 

I have to be more accurate: "then we have said that that result is outside the scope of our consideration" is not the same as "we just said it is not what we are considering under RWE". The latter I is true if RWE is public only BUT the former may be understood as that private service result is out of the scope of RAF! This I cannot agree with because BOTH types of result belong to the SOA ecosystem.

 

Service Action produces private (always) and public (sometimes) results and only the public one is RWE. If you agree with this statement, than the purpose of the service is to produce Result whether public or private, or both.

 

 

 

- Michael

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
To: mpoulin@usa.com; peter@peterfbrown.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:49 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

Michael,

 

I agree with most of your points, except the final one on RWE.  Someone may use a service to satisfy some private need but if the result is only known privately, then we have said that that result is outside the scope of our consideration.  We didn’t say the private result didn’t occur, we just said it is not what we are considering under RWE.

 

Ken

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Kenneth Laskey

MITRE Corporation, M/S H305              phone: 703-983-7934

7515 Colshire Drive                                    fax:        703-983-1379

McLean VA 22102-7508

 

From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:24 PM
To: peter@peterfbrown.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

 

Before going through details and definitions, I think we have to agree on the a few principles.

 

Since RAF is about SOA ecosystem and we agreed that this one includes both business and technology then:

 

1) we cannot operate with definitions from RM with no changes because RM did not considered ecosystem. However, the changes of RM definitions should not deny the original definitions but may modify/extend them for the new context - ecosystem

 

2) all definitions we use have to be either meaningful/"interepretable" in both Business and Technology or we have explicitly identify the scope of the definition and justify that it does not work in the entire ecosystem ( in this case we will never confuse SOA-based system with 'just'/technical system

 

3) we have to draw a relationship/dependency lines (like in Value Networks) between our definitions to see consistency and influence between them

This better be not in a table format but in a map format. For example, in one place we say that service purpose is to provide a RWE; in another place we say that RWE is only shared/pubic thing; this leads to the conclusion that the purpose of service is to provide only shared/pubic thing, which is incorrect.

 

 

If we can agree on these principles and approach, we can eliminate a lot of unnecessary discussions 

 

- Michael

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter F Brown <peter@peterfbrown.com>
To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:07 am
Subject: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

As promised, attached is a comparison of the terms defined in the 28 July 2010 draft alongside the definitions used in the latest draft (in Excel and .ods formats)

As you will see, there are precious few instances of where the definitions match exactly, although in many cases it was more a case of cleaning up the wording (particularly to conform with standards for definitions, eg ISO 1087) than actually changing the definition.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

Peter F Brown

Independent Consultant

Transforming our Relationships with Information Technologies

Web         www.peterfbrown.com

Blog          pensivepeter.wordpress.com

Twitter     @pensivepeter

P.O. Box 49719, Los Angeles, CA 90049, USA

Tel: +1.310.694.2278

Tel: +1.310.694.2278

 

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