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Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions


Thank you, BOris, now you've got to exactly same point I trying preach in lust dozen of messages " RWE becomes an umbrella statement for a combination of both, which probably makes the most sense"

- Michael

(I still do not believe that it is the service method does the work and not the service. The service method may be materialised in the interface only and have only combined execution inside the service, which is required by the Principle of Loose-Coupling, BTW. A number of people saying that 'method is the worker, not the service that owns the method' does not proof they are right).



-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>; mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Thu, Jan 20, 2011 3:04 am
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions

Sorry, can’t agree – SOA is a style, while WS is technology. We did SOA without WS, but the concepts of service methods and interface stay the same . Take a quick look at our book – Applied SOA.
This aside, the question is whether you consider RWE to be side effects? Then it has to be stated this way. The issue is that side effects are not mandatory and calculator example is a good example.
Conversely, we can call a combination of side effect and service method’s execution result a RWE. Then RWE becomes an umbrella statement for a combination of both, which probably makes the most sense. In this case, service invocation always results in RWE, which can encompass multiple things.
 
But whatever route we take it should be mapped to a common understanding
 
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 8:49 PM
To: 'Lublinsky, Boris'; mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
 
Boris,
 
I will agree with Michael that when we talk about method execution, we tend to be talking about code implementation of Web Services.  While we need to make sure we don’t lose our audience, the service method as relates to C++ or Java coding is pretty much irrelevant to an understanding of SOA principles.
 
I agree if a service identifies certain results are the result of an interaction/execution – we’ll straighten this out – then these should happen as described.  However, side effects are rarely optional and often tend to be unwanted.  While RWE may be a RM invention, I find people easily resonate with it.
 
So, to your obligations, how can we effectively relate the variations?
 
Ken
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Kenneth Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305              phone: 703-983-7934
7515 Colshire Drive                                    fax:        703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508
 
From: Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:33 PM
To: mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
 
It is another example, where we keep inventing stuff. Typically discussing services, people discuss two things – method execution result and side effects. Service results always happen (I am including error here), while side effects are optional. RWE is invention of SOA-RM. Now the question is how to map these three things to each other.
 
Ken, I keep fulfilling my obligations from today
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:56 PM
To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
 
Very well, Ken, if we follow RM about RWE, we cannot say that the purpose of the service is to provide RWE or that the service provides RWE always.
 
The purpose of the service is the consumer satisfaction while this consumer can consume the entire service result and do not leave anything for public. This means, service does not necessary provides RWE. Oups! BTW, I do accept this formula being INSIDE the SOA ecosystem. However, from the ecosystem level of view, everything in it is visible, i.e. shared with the ecosystem.
 
This all is about viewpoint. We have to choose one and then agree on what is what in its view.
 
If RM also insists on that service always provides RWE - it becomes an oxymoron and RM 'sits between chairs'
- Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
To: mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Wed, Jan 19, 2011 9:26 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
Michael,
 
Where we agree is description can’t contain every possible piece of relevant information (as noted in the RM), and sufficient description is in the eye of the beholder.  We say enough about description to make it clear that a Web Service interface alone is not sufficient; if someone wants to insist it is, that’s their problem. 
 
By definition, if something is shared then it is to some extent public, i.e. available to someone (not everyone) else.  RWE is defined in the RM as a change in shared state (and requested information exchange), so private results not evident to someone else is not RWE, at least not as far as the ecosystem is concerned.
 
Ken
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:18 PM
To: Laskey, Ken; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
 
If I go this way ("the change in private states is the change in private states is unknown to the SOA ecosystem ) I can easily end-up with that consumer internals and service internals (everything - Actions, activities, invocation of other services/resources, intent, willingness, etc.) are " unknown to the SOA ecosystem", which  leads to that neither consumer nor service are really known to the SOA ecosystem except for their public interfaces (Hello, Web Services! Where are you hiding?)
 
All this starts to become an utopia. Why? For the sake of insisting that RWE is public only, which is absurd (sorry, but it is if the word World means something else other than Everything, i.e. not World). I used to think that does not matter if service produce private or public results, it is the change in the state of the World... Is this also incorrect?
 
We can avoid a lot of misinterpretations and confusions if we admit very simple thing: RWE is the change in the state of the World including public/private or shared/private things. This means that any service always produces the RWE regardless if it is consumed privately or publicly.
 
The difference between RWE and service Result is in that Result is the only thing promised and admitted by the service while RWE is the use of the service Results that is not announced in the Service Description. Everyone can use the service result in any unexpected way and service result can cause many different changes in the state - both are the parts of the RWE, which the service consumer does not care.
 
I would like to have a SOA ecosystem that includes all external activities (between entities) and all internal activities (of the entities); SOA ecosystem sees all. Inside the SOA ecosystem, some entities are not always acting publicly and this is OK - RAF has to describe and define things on the both sides of interfaces.
 
Where I am wrong?
 
- Michael
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
To: mpoulin@usa.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Wed, Jan 19, 2011 7:41 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
Let’s try it this way:  a service action (by which I mean an action from the Action Model) results in the change of public and possibly private states.  The change in public states is RWE, the change in private states is unknown to the SOA ecosystem unless these become public at a later time.
 
Ken
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 2:12 PM
To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
 
Ken,
 
I gave this example as an evidence of inconsistency and brocken/forgotten dependency between definitions.
 
I have to be more accurate: "then we have said that that result is outside the scope of our consideration" is not the same as "we just said it is not what we are considering under RWE". The latter I is true if RWE is public only BUT the former may be understood as that private service result is out of the scope of RAF! This I cannot agree with because BOTH types of result belong to the SOA ecosystem.
 
Service Action produces private (always) and public (sometimes) results and only the public one is RWE. If you agree with this statement, than the purpose of the service is to produce Result whether public or private, or both.
 
 
 
- Michael
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Laskey <klaskey@mitre.org>
To: mpoulin@usa.com; peter@peterfbrown.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:49 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
Michael,
 
I agree with most of your points, except the final one on RWE.  Someone may use a service to satisfy some private need but if the result is only known privately, then we have said that that result is outside the scope of our consideration.  We didn’t say the private result didn’t occur, we just said it is not what we are considering under RWE.
 
Ken
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Kenneth Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305              phone: 703-983-7934
7515 Colshire Drive                                    fax:        703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508
 
From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:24 PM
To: peter@peterfbrown.com; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
 
Before going through details and definitions, I think we have to agree on the a few principles.
 
Since RAF is about SOA ecosystem and we agreed that this one includes both business and technology then:
 
1) we cannot operate with definitions from RM with no changes because RM did not considered ecosystem. However, the changes of RM definitions should not deny the original definitions but may modify/extend them for the new context - ecosystem
 
2) all definitions we use have to be either meaningful/"interepretable" in both Business and Technology or we have explicitly identify the scope of the definition and justify that it does not work in the entire ecosystem ( in this case we will never confuse SOA-based system with 'just'/technical system
 
3) we have to draw a relationship/dependency lines (like in Value Networks) between our definitions to see consistency and influence between them
This better be not in a table format but in a map format. For example, in one place we say that service purpose is to provide a RWE; in another place we say that RWE is only shared/pubic thing; this leads to the conclusion that the purpose of service is to provide only shared/pubic thing, which is incorrect.
 
 
If we can agree on these principles and approach, we can eliminate a lot of unnecessary discussions 
 
- Michael
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter F Brown <peter@peterfbrown.com>
To: soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Sent: Wed, Jan 19, 2011 6:07 am
Subject: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
As promised, attached is a comparison of the terms defined in the 28 July 2010 draft alongside the definitions used in the latest draft (in Excel and .ods formats)
As you will see, there are precious few instances of where the definitions match exactly, although in many cases it was more a case of cleaning up the wording (particularly to conform with standards for definitions, eg ISO 1087) than actually changing the definition.
 
Regards,
Peter
 
Peter F Brown
Independent Consultant
Transforming our Relationships with Information Technologies
Web         www.peterfbrown.com
Blog          pensivepeter.wordpress.com
Twitter     @pensivepeter
P.O. Box 49719, Los Angeles, CA 90049, USA
Tel: +1.310.694.2278
Tel: +1.310.694.2278
 
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