-----Original Message-----
From: Lublinsky, Boris <boris.lublinsky@navteq.com>
To: mpoulin@usa.com <mpoulin@usa.com>; soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm-ra@lists.oasis-open.org>; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Thu, Jan 20, 2011 2:30 pm
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison of definitions
I take it back
Conversation state is a special case of private state shred by a
limited set of participants
It sees that this is in a
conflict with your later conclusion (which I agreed with in general).
To me, all these three states address the state from three
different directions simultaneously. I think that Conversation state may be
public or private (usually - private). Shared state may be
public, i.e. shared with all (despite of their interests), or may be private
when only limited participants share it among themselves. Also, I think that
given definition of Private state is over restrictive and dysfunctional.
However, I think that we have passed these points in the
discussion already.
- Michael
Does this mean that Conversation
state is neither Shared
state nor Shared state?
Can we change it slightly:
Private state: The private state is that part of a service state
that is knowable by, and accessible to, only that service
Shared state: Shared state is an information about service that
is knowable by, and may be accessible to, other actors.
Conversation state: Conversation state is state knowable by, and
may be accessible to all participants of a conversation.
Again – this is a commonly used definitions
Ahh, that is not the way we’ve used public and private.
Current definitions:
Private state: The private state is that part of an entity‘s
state that is knowable by, and accessible to, only that entity
Shared state: Shared state is that part of an entity‘s state
that is knowable by, and may be accessible to, other actors.
In order for a state to be shared, it must be public.
Would you agree that 'public' means that anybody can get the thing
while 'private' means that only limited and permitted persons can get the
thing?
If you agree, then an interaction between a consumer and a service
may be private while the service may be publicly accessible. If anybody can
interfere with service interaction, it is public interaction; otherwise, it is
private.
I think this is very clear.
No, the internal counter is not public.
This means that ALL service results are always shared with, at
least , the result requester. It is OK with me.
Now, we have to proof that everything is public in SOA ecosystem
and close all questions about RWE and service...
No, it is shared between the requester and the
calculator/service. If the requester has internal processes that
increments a counter every time the calculator returns a result, this would be
a private result.
But this is the private result, i.e. there is not RWE.
Calculator does processing and returns the result of the
processing.
This is going to my comments earlier. If you ask a guy on the
street, that the terms that he thinks in (Sorry Michael, has nothing to do with
WS).
You red inlining is exactly a kind of explanation that is
required + we need to describe what this change buys to system designer.
As for the calculator example, I can’t agree (sound Michael
like). There is no screen – calculator is a service – it gets a message and
returns a message back
Is there any major damage by my using red wording inline below?
As for importance of RWE, it is what someone wants and why they use
service. The RWE of a calculator is the result it displays.
·
In accepted terms a service has an interface(s) – Service
interface
·
Service interface has method(s) – Service methods. Service
interface defines message exchange with service
·
A service method (not a service) can be invoked. Message
to service Interface triggers service action through corresponding private
actions
·
Service method provides an execution result. Triggering
a service action lead to results.
·
An execution result can either change a service state or return
an error Public Results are changes in states or a return of information
·
A change in a service state may (or not) produce RWE Changes
to public states produce RWE
So far this is excepted set of thing that most of practitioners
will relate to
Now here is a list of questions:
·
How is service action relates to the above? is it a service
method invocation?
·
Why do we care so much about RWE? A calculator is a useful
service with no RWE
Let’s try it this way: a service action (by which I mean
an action from the Action Model) results in the change of public and possibly
private states. The change in public states is RWE, the change in private
states is unknown to the SOA ecosystem unless these become public at a later
time.
I gave this example as an evidence of inconsistency and
brocken/forgotten dependency between definitions.
I have to be more accurate: "then we have said that that result is outside the scope of our
consideration" is not the same as "we just said it is not what we are considering under RWE". The
latter I is true if RWE is public only BUT the former may be understood as that
private service result is out of the scope of RAF! This I cannot agree with
because BOTH types of result belong to the SOA ecosystem.
Service Action produces private (always) and public (sometimes)
results and only the public one is RWE. If you agree with this statement, than
the purpose of the service is to produce Result whether public or
private, or both.
I agree with most of your points, except the final one on
RWE. Someone may use a service to satisfy some private need but if the
result is only known privately, then we have said that that result is outside
the scope of our consideration. We didn’t say the private result didn’t
occur, we just said it is not what we are considering under RWE.
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Before going through details and definitions, I think we have to
agree on the a few principles.
Since RAF is about SOA ecosystem and we agreed that this one
includes both business and technology then:
1) we cannot operate with definitions from RM with no changes
because RM did not considered ecosystem. However, the changes of RM
definitions should not deny the original definitions but may modify/extend them
for the new context - ecosystem
2) all definitions we use have to be either meaningful/"interepretable"
in both Business and Technology or we have explicitly identify
the scope of the definition and justify that it does not work in the entire
ecosystem ( in this case we will never confuse SOA-based system with
'just'/technical system
3) we have to draw a relationship/dependency lines (like in
Value Networks) between our definitions to see consistency and influence
between them.
This better be not in a table format but in a map format. For
example, in one place we say that service purpose is to provide a RWE; in
another place we say that RWE is only shared/pubic thing; this leads to the
conclusion that the purpose of service is to provide only shared/pubic thing, which is incorrect.
If we can agree on these principles
and approach, we can eliminate a lot of unnecessary discussions
As promised, attached is a comparison of the terms defined in the
28 July 2010 draft alongside the definitions used in the latest draft (in Excel
and .ods formats)
As you will see, there are precious few instances of where the
definitions match exactly, although in many cases it was more a case of cleaning
up the wording (particularly to conform with standards for definitions, eg ISO
1087) than actually changing the definition.
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