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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Groups - Rough notes taken during the last ebSOA meeting. (ebSOA-Elements.pdf) uploaded

Hmm, an interesting question because I was attempting to remain  
abstract in specifying what I thought were elementary functions and not  
specifying the "thing" that was involved.  I don't know if the input  
and/or output of every service is a message but I have a hard time  
imagining an SOA where these functions didn't occur.  Which ones could  
I drop?  Is there a more general description that maintains the  
function?  Is there an example of something that is not a message but  
which serves the function?


On Apr 10, 2005, at 3:45 PM, Matthew MacKenzie wrote:

> create, transport, receive, save and archive don't strike me as being  
> words that convey "abstract" very well, wouldn't you agree?
> Is the input and/or output of every consumption of a service  
> necessarily a "message"?
> -matt
> On 10-Apr-05, at 12:10 PM, Ken Laskey wrote:
>> I have not yet gone through the rest of this thread (and several  
>> others) but it seems that while the message itself is not part of the  
>> RM, the ability to create, transport, receive, and possibly  
>> save/archive the message is part of the RM.  Can we conceive of an  
>> SOA without messages?  Consider the message exchange patterns (MEPs)  
>> that are part of WSDL 2.0 for the types of message patterns people  
>> imagine.  Do we think these are accurate?  How does the RM  
>> acknowledge these?
>> Ken
>> On Mar 30, 2005, at 7:32 PM, Duane Nickull wrote:
>>> Hi Rebekah:
>>> Some comments inline:
>>> Metz Rebekah wrote:
>>>> All -
>>>> I have another 25 messages to go before I catch up with all the  
>>>> traffic
>>>> on the list, so I apologize if my comments are already outdated.
>>> I would recommend reading Thomas's elegant summary - it may save you  
>>> some time ;-)
>>>> Respecting the service description, contract, and data model from
>>>> Duane's message - does you think that "all aspects of the service"
>>>> encompasses the service interface and the policy?  I like the use  
>>>> of the
>>>> term service contract, but have seen several interpretations of the  
>>>> term
>>>> ranging from semantics ("what is meant") to syntax (vis a vis the  
>>>> WSDL)
>>>> and also that the WSDL is the data model is the contract.  I would  
>>>> argue
>>>> that the contract is the same as the data model.  However, I'd have  
>>>> to
>>>> think a bit more to provide a convincing argument rather than simply
>>>> positing an idea.
>>> The data model is the abstract concept of what data you will pass in  
>>> and out of a service.  An open ended question is "does the data  
>>> model include the notion of semantics?".  I would like to hear  
>>> comments back on this matter.
>>>> Continuing into the message, I would disagree with the following:
>>>>> If I build something and that is "Service Oriented"  
>>>>> architecturally, does it have to have a "message"?  No - the  
>>>>> service itself has a mechanism that allows a service consumer to  
>>>>> bind to it to invoke the service but it doesn't actually have to  
>>>>> be invoked for it to be "service oriented architecture".
>>>> I would argue that conceptually, a message exists.  <SNIP>
>>> Try to think abstract.  If you think concrete - then the answer is  
>>> yes, however the reference model is not concrete.  No other  
>>> reference models use messages by convention either.  If you find one  
>>> that is well scrutinized and accepted by peers, please let me know.
>>>> The mechanism by
>>>> which the consumer binds to the service and invokes it constitutes  
>>>> the
>>>> message.
>>> Conceptually - yes.  The "service" element of the SOA RM draft on  
>>> the position paper includes the concept of a binding.  A physical  
>>> message does not have to be sent.  When using the RM to write a  
>>> concrete SO infrastructure architecture, one would recognize that a  
>>> message protocol would likely be needed to be specified, along with  
>>> several other items like security, potentially some sort of state  
>>> management (like BPM), etc etc.
>>> I hope this helps a bit.
>>> Duane
>>> -- ***********
>>> Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. -  
>>> http://www.adobe.com
>>> Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>>> Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources  -  
>>> http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>>> ***********
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>> --------------------
>> Ken Laskey
>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-883-7934
>> 7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        703-883-1379
>> McLean VA 22102-7508
Ken Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-883-7934
7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        703-883-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508

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