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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Groups - Rough notes taken during the last ebSOA meeting.(ebSOA-Elements.pdf) uploaded


Christopher:

Good question.  Is the term "network" is too narrow and constrictive.  
Consider 811g and bluetooth.  They do not use a TCP/IP network - they 
use a different medium and methodology (radio frequency / broadcast) to 
achieve the same implementation pattern as UDDI does for web services.  
Both can be boiled up to the concept of "advertising" that services are 
available.

A service is a conceptually a "service", regardless of what the medium 
is that reaches it.

Duane




Christopher Bashioum wrote:

>This is a good point.  Does an SOA imply networked resources vs. resources
>that are in the same process space?  If so, then that implication should
>somehow be part of the RM.  In other words, how does the RM show that
>Service Oriented is different than, say, Object Oriented?  
>
>I had this same discussion with some folks the other day.  One of them was
>proposing that you could have an SOA with all of the services running on the
>same processor.  My response was "maybe, but the services would have to be
>constructed in a way that they can just as easily exist anywhere on the
>network".  So ... If part of the definition of a service is that it can be
>reached across the network, doesn't that imply messaging?
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Matthew MacKenzie [mailto:mattm@adobe.com] 
>Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 3:46 PM
>To: Ken Laskey
>Cc: Duane Nickull; Metz Rebekah; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Groups - Rough notes taken during the last ebSOA
>meeting. (ebSOA-Elements.pdf) uploaded
>
>create, transport, receive, save and archive don't strike me as being  
>words that convey "abstract" very well, wouldn't you agree?
>
>Is the input and/or output of every consumption of a service  
>necessarily a "message"?
>-matt
>
>On 10-Apr-05, at 12:10 PM, Ken Laskey wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I have not yet gone through the rest of this thread (and several  
>>others) but it seems that while the message itself is not part of the  
>>RM, the ability to create, transport, receive, and possibly  
>>save/archive the message is part of the RM.  Can we conceive of an SOA  
>>without messages?  Consider the message exchange patterns (MEPs) that  
>>are part of WSDL 2.0 for the types of message patterns people imagine.  
>> Do we think these are accurate?  How does the RM acknowledge these?
>>
>>Ken
>>
>>
>>On Mar 30, 2005, at 7:32 PM, Duane Nickull wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Hi Rebekah:
>>>
>>>Some comments inline:
>>>
>>>Metz Rebekah wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>All -
>>>>I have another 25 messages to go before I catch up with all the  
>>>>traffic
>>>>on the list, so I apologize if my comments are already outdated.
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>I would recommend reading Thomas's elegant summary - it may save you  
>>>some time ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Respecting the service description, contract, and data model from
>>>>Duane's message - does you think that "all aspects of the service"
>>>>encompasses the service interface and the policy?  I like the use of  
>>>>the
>>>>term service contract, but have seen several interpretations of the  
>>>>term
>>>>ranging from semantics ("what is meant") to syntax (vis a vis the  
>>>>WSDL)
>>>>and also that the WSDL is the data model is the contract.  I would  
>>>>argue
>>>>that the contract is the same as the data model.  However, I'd have  
>>>>to
>>>>think a bit more to provide a convincing argument rather than simply
>>>>positing an idea.
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>The data model is the abstract concept of what data you will pass in  
>>>and out of a service.  An open ended question is "does the data model  
>>>include the notion of semantics?".  I would like to hear comments  
>>>back on this matter.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Continuing into the message, I would disagree with the following:
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>If I build something and that is "Service Oriented"  
>>>>>architecturally, does it have to have a "message"?  No - the  
>>>>>service itself has a mechanism that allows a service consumer to  
>>>>>bind to it to invoke the service but it doesn't actually have to be  
>>>>>invoked for it to be "service oriented architecture".
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>I would argue that conceptually, a message exists.  <SNIP>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Try to think abstract.  If you think concrete - then the answer is  
>>>yes, however the reference model is not concrete.  No other reference  
>>>models use messages by convention either.  If you find one that is  
>>>well scrutinized and accepted by peers, please let me know.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>The mechanism by
>>>>which the consumer binds to the service and invokes it constitutes  
>>>>the
>>>>message.
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>Conceptually - yes.  The "service" element of the SOA RM draft on the  
>>>position paper includes the concept of a binding.  A physical message  
>>>does not have to be sent.  When using the RM to write a concrete SO  
>>>infrastructure architecture, one would recognize that a message  
>>>protocol would likely be needed to be specified, along with several  
>>>other items like security, potentially some sort of state management  
>>>(like BPM), etc etc.
>>>
>>>I hope this helps a bit.
>>>
>>>Duane
>>>
>>>-- ***********
>>>Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. -  
>>>http://www.adobe.com
>>>Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>>>Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources  -  
>>>http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>>>***********
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>>-------------------
>>Ken Laskey
>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-883-7934
>>7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        703-883-1379
>>McLean VA 22102-7508
>>
>>
>>    
>>
>
>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
***********
Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. - http://www.adobe.com
Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources  - http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
***********



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