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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Groups - Rough notes taken during the last ebSOA meeting.(ebSOA-Elements.pdf) uploaded

Its is an interesting dicsussion wether a message is part of a RM or not.

If one want to create, send receive, listen, save etc then what is to be 
operated on if some container of information is not part of the RM?  
There seem to a need to for some basic key concepts if one want to build 
higher level (semantically enriched) constructs. A RM could benefit from 
being mappable, extended, made concrete, made detailed etc.



Ken Laskey wrote:

> I have not yet gone through the rest of this thread (and several  
> others) but it seems that while the message itself is not part of the  
> RM, the ability to create, transport, receive, and possibly  
> save/archive the message is part of the RM.  Can we conceive of an 
> SOA  without messages?  Consider the message exchange patterns (MEPs) 
> that  are part of WSDL 2.0 for the types of message patterns people 
> imagine.   Do we think these are accurate?  How does the RM 
> acknowledge these?
> Ken
> On Mar 30, 2005, at 7:32 PM, Duane Nickull wrote:
>> Hi Rebekah:
>> Some comments inline:
>> Metz Rebekah wrote:
>>> All -
>>> I have another 25 messages to go before I catch up with all the  
>>> traffic
>>> on the list, so I apologize if my comments are already outdated.
>> I would recommend reading Thomas's elegant summary - it may save you  
>> some time ;-)
>>> Respecting the service description, contract, and data model from
>>> Duane's message - does you think that "all aspects of the service"
>>> encompasses the service interface and the policy?  I like the use 
>>> of  the
>>> term service contract, but have seen several interpretations of the  
>>> term
>>> ranging from semantics ("what is meant") to syntax (vis a vis the  
>>> WSDL)
>>> and also that the WSDL is the data model is the contract.  I would  
>>> argue
>>> that the contract is the same as the data model.  However, I'd have to
>>> think a bit more to provide a convincing argument rather than simply
>>> positing an idea.
>> The data model is the abstract concept of what data you will pass in  
>> and out of a service.  An open ended question is "does the data 
>> model  include the notion of semantics?".  I would like to hear 
>> comments back  on this matter.
>>> Continuing into the message, I would disagree with the following:
>>>> If I build something and that is "Service Oriented" 
>>>> architecturally,  does it have to have a "message"?  No - the 
>>>> service itself has a  mechanism that allows a service consumer to 
>>>> bind to it to invoke the  service but it doesn't actually have to 
>>>> be invoked for it to be  "service oriented architecture".
>>> I would argue that conceptually, a message exists.  <SNIP>
>> Try to think abstract.  If you think concrete - then the answer is  
>> yes, however the reference model is not concrete.  No other 
>> reference  models use messages by convention either.  If you find one 
>> that is  well scrutinized and accepted by peers, please let me know.
>>> The mechanism by
>>> which the consumer binds to the service and invokes it constitutes the
>>> message.
>> Conceptually - yes.  The "service" element of the SOA RM draft on 
>> the  position paper includes the concept of a binding.  A physical 
>> message  does not have to be sent.  When using the RM to write a 
>> concrete SO  infrastructure architecture, one would recognize that a 
>> message  protocol would likely be needed to be specified, along with 
>> several  other items like security, potentially some sort of state 
>> management  (like BPM), etc etc.
>> I hope this helps a bit.
>> Duane
>> --  ***********
>> Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. -  
>> http://www.adobe.com
>> Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>> Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources  -  
>> http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>> ***********
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> ------------------
> Ken Laskey
> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-883-7934
> 7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        703-883-1379
> McLean VA 22102-7508


Best Regards

/ Anders W. Tell           /
/ Financial Toolsmiths AB  /
/ <anderst@toolsmiths.se>  /


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