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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes? Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data model[1]? If that is not what is needed, please give specifics as to why (i.e. I think that "we don't need a data model" is too general a statement). Thanks, Joe [1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html Kind Regards, Joseph Chiusano Booz Allen Hamilton Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > -----Original Message----- > From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 1:13 PM > To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML > Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of data model > and a general definition of SOA should support any strategy > employable by data tiers. Defining the notion of data model > really seems out of scope to me. > > On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote: > > > > These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data > > model". Can you please clarify further what the difference > between a "SOA data model" > > and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA data > > model" may now be a newly coined term) > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > Joseph Chiusano > > > > Booz Allen Hamilton > > > > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com] > > Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM > > To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey' > > Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > > > > > > > > > The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not > scale with time. > > Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain the richness of > > communication that is expected among various SOA entities. > > > > > > > > IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a) the interfaces used by > > SOA entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms to > discover these > > interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a vocabulary/format for > > data exchange over these discovered interfaces. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vikas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM > > To: Frank McCabe; Ken Laskey > > Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > > > > > > > > > I think some additional context may not have been provided below. > > While the article does state "This article does not discuss how to > > integrate data models", it is stated in the context of > "this article > > will not get into this topic because it is either out of > scope or too complex to discuss". > > > > > > > > > > > > The author is actually a strong proponent of having an > integrated data > > model, as they depict an integrated data model as one of > the layers of > > their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical data > model", which is > > a special type of data model used for data exchange. > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Chiusano > > > > Booz Allen Hamilton > > > > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com] > > Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM > > To: Ken Laskey > > Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > > > > > +1 > > Frank > > > > > > On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: > > > > > The critical line in this article is > > > > > > This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. > > > > > > Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get > > > into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common > vocabulary to > > > map to. I could go on about when that works and when > that doesn't > > > (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the > > > basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other > integration > > > paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system > > > (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse > vocabularies > > > in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to > > > use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you > to do more > > > with little or no effort. > > > > > > The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not > > > codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. > > > > > > End of rant:-) > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in > > >> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a > > >> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA > > >> (about mid-article). > > >> > > >> Joe > > >> > > >> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm > > >> > > >> > > >> Joseph Chiusano > > >> > > >> Booz Allen Hamilton > > >> > > >> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------- > > > Ken Laskey > > > MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 > > > 7515 Colshire Drive fax: > 703-983-1379 > > > McLean VA 22102-7508 > > > > > > *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective > > > 4/15/2005 *** > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: > > > > > The critical line in this article is > > > > > > This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. > > > > > > Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get > > > into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common > vocabulary to > > > map to. I could go on about when that works and when > that doesn't > > > (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the > > > basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other > integration > > > paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system > > > (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse > vocabularies > > > in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to > > > use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you > to do more > > > with little or no effort. > > > > > > The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not > > > codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. > > > > > > End of rant:-) > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in > > >> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a > > >> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA > > >> (about mid-article). > > >> > > >> Joe > > >> > > >> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm > > >> > > >> > > >> Joseph Chiusano > > >> > > >> Booz Allen Hamilton > > >> > > >> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -------------------- > > > Ken Laskey > > > MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 > > > 7515 Colshire Drive fax: > 703-983-1379 > > > McLean VA 22102-7508 > > > > > > *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective > > > 4/15/2005 *** > > > > > > > >
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