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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
I'll go back to my comments on 5/6 re Good Recent SOA Piece:
<recap>
The critical line in this article is
This article does not discuss how to integrate data models.
Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get into a
room and be reasonable we can all find a common vocabulary to map to. I
could go on about when that works and when that doesn't (see my OASIS
Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the basis of SOA, then it
will go no further than any other integration paradigm. The driving
question is how do you create a system (service?) to do semantic
negotiation between diverse vocabularies in a way that is (1) visible, (2)
reusable, and (3) allows you to use what you know (or can find) in ways
that enables you to do more with little or no effort.
The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not codify an
interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale.
End of rant:-)
</recap>
If you want to come up with a "canonical" vocabulary to capture SOA
semantics as will be described in the reference model, that is fine because
it will be the SOA-RM vocabulary. Do not expect it to provide general
translation capabilities for all services.
Being trained as a fluid mechanics engineer, I see this as the classic
nozzle where things funnel down from one large plenum to a minimum flow
passage and then expands into a second large plenum. The problem is the
minimum flow can be a choke point. It works the same way with vocabulary
translation.
Ken
At 12:38 PM 5/9/2005, Duane Nickull wrote:
>Perhaps you are correct sir!!
>
>What do others think?
>
>Duane
>
>
>
>
>Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>
>>Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes?
>>Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data model[1]? If
>>that is not what is needed, please give specifics as to why (i.e. I
>>think that "we don't need a data model" is too general a statement).
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Joe
>>
>>[1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html
>>
>>Kind Regards,
>>Joseph Chiusano
>>Booz Allen Hamilton
>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005
>>>1:13 PM
>>>To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model
>>>In Your SOA - Best Practices"
>>>
>>>IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of data model and a
>>>general definition of SOA should support any strategy employable by data
>>>tiers. Defining the notion of data model really seems out of scope to me.
>>>
>>>On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data model".
>>>>Can you please clarify further what the difference
>>>between a "SOA data model"
>>>
>>>
>>>>and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA data
>>>>model" may now be a newly coined term)
>>>>Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joseph Chiusano
>>>>
>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>
>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com]
>>>>Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM
>>>>To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey'
>>>>Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
>>>>Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not
>>>scale with time.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain the richness of
>>>>communication that is expected among various SOA entities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a) the interfaces used by SOA
>>>>entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms to
>>>discover these
>>>
>>>>interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a vocabulary/format for data
>>>>exchange over these discovered interfaces.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Vikas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com]
>>>>Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
>>>>To: Frank McCabe; Ken Laskey
>>>>Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
>>>>Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I think some additional context may not have been provided below. While
>>>>the article does state "This article does not discuss how to integrate
>>>>data models", it is stated in the context of
>>>"this article
>>>
>>>>will not get into this topic because it is either out of
>>>scope or too complex to discuss".
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The author is actually a strong proponent of having an
>>>integrated data
>>>
>>>>model, as they depict an integrated data model as one of
>>>the layers of
>>>
>>>>their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical data
>>>model", which is
>>>
>>>>a special type of data model used for data exchange.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joseph Chiusano
>>>>
>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>
>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com]
>>>>Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM
>>>>To: Ken Laskey
>>>>Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
>>>>Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>+1
>>>>Frank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The critical line in this article is
>>>>>
>>>>>This article does not discuss how to integrate data models.
>>>>>
>>>>>Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get into
>>>>>a room and be reasonable we can all find a common
>>>vocabulary to
>>>
>>>>>map to. I could go on about when that works and when
>>>that doesn't
>>>
>>>>>(see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the
>>>>>basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other
>>>integration
>>>
>>>>>paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system
>>>>>(service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse
>>>vocabularies
>>>
>>>>>in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to use
>>>>>what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you
>>>to do more
>>>
>>>>>with little or no effort.
>>>>>
>>>>>The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not
>>>>>codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale.
>>>>>
>>>>>End of rant:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in reading
>>>>>>it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a foundational
>>>>>>concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA (about mid-article).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>>>--------------------
>>>>>Ken Laskey
>>>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
>>>>>7515 Colshire Drive fax:
>>>>>
>>>703-983-1379
>>>
>>>
>>>>>McLean VA 22102-7508
>>>>>
>>>>>*** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective
>>>>>4/15/2005 ***
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The critical line in this article is
>>>>>
>>>>>This article does not discuss how to integrate data models.
>>>>>
>>>>>Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get into
>>>>>a room and be reasonable we can all find a common
>>>vocabulary to
>>>
>>>>>map to. I could go on about when that works and when
>>>that doesn't
>>>
>>>>>(see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the
>>>>>basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other
>>>integration
>>>
>>>>>paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system
>>>>>(service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse
>>>vocabularies
>>>
>>>>>in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to use
>>>>>what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you
>>>to do more
>>>
>>>>>with little or no effort.
>>>>>
>>>>>The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not
>>>>>codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale.
>>>>>
>>>>>End of rant:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in reading
>>>>>>it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a foundational
>>>>>>concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA (about mid-article).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>>>--------------------
>>>>>Ken Laskey
>>>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
>>>>>7515 Colshire Drive fax:
>>>>>
>>>703-983-1379
>>>
>>>
>>>>>McLean VA 22102-7508
>>>>>
>>>>>*** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective
>>>>>4/15/2005 ***
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>***********
>Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. - http://www.adobe.com
>Chair - OASIS Service Oriented Architecture Reference Model Technical
>Committee - http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm
>Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources -
>http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>***********
>
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ Ken
Laskey \
| MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 |
| 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 |
\ McLean VA 22102-7508 /
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*** note: phone number changed 4/15/2005 to 703-983-7934 ***
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