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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
There may be cases where that canonical data model makes sense
and I
like the idea however we have to remember that there are
many
different camps out there to satisfy. How does this fit into
an
architecture where someone is trying to do SOA with Jini or CORBA
for
instance? There may be MOM style cases where someone wants to drop
a
message on a bus with a routing ticket and a very specific payload
where
no translation is required.
On 5/9/05, Duane Nickull
<dnickull@adobe.com> wrote:
> Perhaps you are correct
sir!!
>
> What do others think?
>
>
Duane
>
>
> Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>
> >Isn't
the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes?
> >Shouldn't
we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data model[1]? If
> >that is
not what is needed, please give specifics as to why (i.e. I
> >think
that "we don't need a data model" is too general a statement).
>
>
> >Thanks,
> >Joe
> >
> >[1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html
>
>
> >Kind Regards,
> >Joseph Chiusano
> >Booz
Allen Hamilton
> >Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >>-----Original
Message-----
> >>From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com]
>
>>Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 1:13 PM
> >>To:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent
SOA Piece: "Managing an XML
> >>Data Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
> >>
> >>IMHO, SOA should really be defined
independent of data model
> >>and a general definition of SOA should
support any strategy
> >>employable by data tiers. Defining the
notion of data model
> >>really seems out of scope to me.
>
>>
> >>On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph
<chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
>
>>>These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA
data
> >>>model". Can you please clarify further what the
difference
> >>>
> >>>
> >>between a
"SOA data model"
> >>
> >>
> >>>and a
"canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA data
>
>>>model" may now be a newly coined term)
> >>>
>
>>>Joe
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>Joseph Chiusano
> >>>
>
>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
> >>>
> >>>Visit
us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>
>>>
> >>>________________________________
>
>>>From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com]
>
>>>Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM
> >>>To: Chiusano Joseph;
'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey'
> >>>Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good
Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
> >>>Model In Your SOA -
Best Practices"
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>The problem with
"canonical data model" is that it does not
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>scale with time.
> >>
>
>>
> >>>Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain
the richness of
> >>>communication that is expected among various
SOA entities.
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define
(a) the interfaces used by
> >>>SOA entities to exchange
information, (b) mechanisms to
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>discover these
> >>
> >>
>
>>>interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a vocabulary/format
for
> >>>data exchange over these discovered interfaces.
>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>Vikas
>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>________________________________
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com]
>
>>>Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
> >>>To: Frank
McCabe; Ken Laskey
> >>>Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>
>>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML
Data
> >>>Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>I think some additional context may not have
been provided below.
> >>>While the article does state "This
article does not discuss how to
> >>>integrate data models", it
is stated in the context of
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>"this article
> >>
> >>
> >>>will
not get into this topic because it is either out of
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>scope or too complex to discuss".
>
>>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>The author is actually a strong proponent of
having an
> >>>
> >>>
> >>integrated
data
> >>
> >>
> >>>model, as they depict
an integrated data model as one of
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>the layers of
> >>
>
>>
> >>>their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical
data
> >>>
> >>>
> >>model", which
is
> >>
> >>
> >>>a special type of data
model used for data exchange.
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>Joe
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>Joseph Chiusano
> >>>
> >>>Booz Allen
Hamilton
> >>>
> >>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>
>>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>________________________________
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com]
>
>>>Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM
> >>>To: Ken
Laskey
> >>>Cc: Chiusano Joseph;
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good
Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
> >>>Model In Your SOA -
Best Practices"
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>+1
> >>>Frank
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey
wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>>The critical line in this article is
>
>>>>
> >>>>This article does not discuss how to
integrate data models.
> >>>>
> >>>>Its
premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get
>
>>>>into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common
>
>>>>
> >>>>
> >>vocabulary to
>
>>
> >>
> >>>>map to. I could go on
about when that works and when
> >>>>
>
>>>>
> >>that doesn't
> >>
>
>>
> >>>>(see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more)
but if that is the
> >>>>basis of SOA, then it will go no
further than any other
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>>integration
> >>
> >>
>
>>>>paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a
system
> >>>>(service?) to do semantic negotiation between
diverse
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>>vocabularies
> >>
> >>
>
>>>>in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you
to
> >>>>use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables
you
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>to do
more
> >>
> >>
> >>>>with little or no
effort.
> >>>>
> >>>>The SOA RM will not
specify how this is done but it must also not
> >>>>codify an
interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale.
>
>>>>
> >>>>End of rant:-)
>
>>>>
> >>>>Ken
> >>>>
>
>>>>
> >>>>On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano
Joseph wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Forwarding
a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in
>
>>>>>reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as
a
> >>>>>foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer
approach to SOA
> >>>>>(about mid-article).
>
>>>>>
> >>>>>Joe
>
>>>>>
> >>>>>[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>
>>>>>
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>Joseph Chiusano
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>
>>>>>
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>
>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>
> >>
> >>>>--------------------
>
>>>>Ken Laskey
> >>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S
H305 phone: 703-983-7934
>
>>>>7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>>703-983-1379
> >>
> >>
>
>>>>McLean VA 22102-7508
> >>>>
>
>>>>*** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983
effective
> >>>>4/15/2005 ***
> >>>>
>
>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>On May 6, 2005, at
8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >>>>The critical line in this article
is
> >>>>
> >>>>This article does not
discuss how to integrate data models.
> >>>>
>
>>>>Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all
get
> >>>>into a room and be reasonable we can all find a
common
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>>vocabulary to
> >>
> >>
>
>>>>map to. I could go on about when that works and
when
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>that
doesn't
> >>
> >>
> >>>>(see my OASIS
Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the
>
>>>>basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other
>
>>>>
> >>>>
> >>integration
>
>>
> >>
> >>>>paradigm. The driving
question is how do you create a system
> >>>>(service?) to do
semantic negotiation between diverse
> >>>>
>
>>>>
> >>vocabularies
> >>
>
>>
> >>>>in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and
(3) allows you to
> >>>>use what you know (or can find) in
ways that enables you
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>>to do more
> >>
> >>
>
>>>>with little or no effort.
> >>>>
>
>>>>The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also
not
> >>>>codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will
not scale.
> >>>>
> >>>>End of
rant:-)
> >>>>
> >>>>Ken
>
>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>On May 6,
2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
> >>>>
>
>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>>>>>Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested
in
> >>>>>reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated
data model as a
> >>>>>foundational concept; also presents
a 6-layer approach to SOA
> >>>>>(about
mid-article).
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>Joe
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>
>>>>>
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>Joseph Chiusano
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>
>>>>>
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>
> >>>>>
>
>>>>>
>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>
> >>
> >>>>--------------------
>
>>>>Ken Laskey
> >>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S
H305 phone: 703-983-7934
>
>>>>7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>>703-983-1379
> >>
> >>
>
>>>>McLean VA 22102-7508
> >>>>
>
>>>>*** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983
effective
> >>>>4/15/2005 ***
> >>>>
>
>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
>
>>>
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
***********
> Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. - http://www.adobe.com
> Chair - OASIS
Service Oriented Architecture Reference Model Technical Committee -
> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm
>
Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>
Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources - http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>
***********
>
>
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