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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
I'll go back to my comments on 5/6 re Good Recent SOA
Piece:
<recap>
The critical line in this article is
This
article does not discuss how to integrate data models.
Its premise is the
tried (and usually failed) that if we all get into a
room and be reasonable
we can all find a common vocabulary to map to. I
could go on about when
that works and when that doesn't (see my OASIS
Symposium presentation for
more) but if that is the basis of SOA, then it
will go no further than any
other integration paradigm. The driving
question is how do you create a
system (service?) to do semantic
negotiation between diverse vocabularies in
a way that is (1) visible, (2)
reusable, and (3) allows you to use what you
know (or can find) in ways
that enables you to do more with little or no
effort.
The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not
codify an
interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale.
End of
rant:-)
</recap>
If you want to come up with a "canonical"
vocabulary to capture SOA
semantics as will be described in the reference
model, that is fine because
it will be the SOA-RM vocabulary. Do not
expect it to provide general
translation capabilities for all
services.
Being trained as a fluid mechanics engineer, I see this as the
classic
nozzle where things funnel down from one large plenum to a minimum
flow
passage and then expands into a second large plenum. The problem
is the
minimum flow can be a choke point. It works the same way with
vocabulary
translation.
Ken
At 12:38 PM 5/9/2005, Duane
Nickull wrote:
>Perhaps you are correct sir!!
>
>What do
others
think?
>
>Duane
>
>
>
>
>Chiusano
Joseph wrote:
>
>>Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general
for our purposes?
>>Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical*
data model[1]? If
>>that is not what is needed, please give specifics
as to why (i.e. I
>>think that "we don't need a data model" is too
general a
statement).
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Joe
>>
>>[1]
http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html
>>
>>Kind
Regards,
>>Joseph Chiusano
>>Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>-----Original
Message-----
>>>From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May
06, 2005
>>>1:13 PM
>>>To:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA
Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model
>>>In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>
>>>IMHO, SOA should really be defined
independent of data model and a
>>>general definition of SOA should
support any strategy employable by data
>>>tiers. Defining the
notion of data model really seems out of scope to
me.
>>>
>>>On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph
<chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>These are very
interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data model".
>>>>Can
you please clarify further what the difference
>>>between a "SOA
data model"
>>>
>>>
>>>>and a "canonical
data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA data
>>>>model" may
now be a newly coined
term)
>>>>Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joseph
Chiusano
>>>>
>>>>Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>
>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>From:
Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com]
>>>>Sent:
Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM
>>>>To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe';
'Ken Laskey'
>>>>Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent
SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
>>>>Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The
problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not
>>>scale
with time.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Eventually it will
not canonicalize but constrain the richness of
>>>>communication
that is expected among various SOA
entities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>IMHO SOA
data mode should aim to define (a) the interfaces used by
SOA
>>>>entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms
to
>>>discover these
>>>
>>>>interfaces
and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a vocabulary/format for
data
>>>>exchange over these discovered
interfaces.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Vikas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From:
Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com]
>>>>Sent:
Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
>>>>To: Frank McCabe; Ken
Laskey
>>>>Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent
SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
>>>>Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I
think some additional context may not have been provided below.
While
>>>>the article does state "This article does not discuss
how to integrate
>>>>data models", it is stated in the context
of
>>>"this article
>>>
>>>>will not get
into this topic because it is either out of
>>>scope or too complex
to
discuss".
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>The
author is actually a strong proponent of having an
>>>integrated
data
>>>
>>>>model, as they depict an integrated data
model as one of
>>>the layers
of
>>>
>>>>their approach. I interpret this as a
"canonical data
>>>model", which
is
>>>
>>>>a special type of data model used for data
exchange.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Joseph
Chiusano
>>>>
>>>>Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>
>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>From:
Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com]
>>>>Sent:
Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM
>>>>To: Ken Laskey
>>>>Cc:
Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>Subject: Re:
[soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
>>>>Model
In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>+1
>>>>Frank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On
May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The
critical line in this article
is
>>>>>
>>>>>This article does not discuss
how to integrate data models.
>>>>>
>>>>>Its
premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get
into
>>>>>a room and be reasonable we can all find a
common
>>>vocabulary to
>>>
>>>>>map
to. I could go on about when that works and when
>>>that
doesn't
>>>
>>>>>(see my OASIS Symposium
presentation for more) but if that is the
>>>>>basis of SOA,
then it will go no further than any
other
>>>integration
>>>
>>>>>paradigm.
The driving question is how do you create a
system
>>>>>(service?) to do semantic negotiation between
diverse
>>>vocabularies
>>>
>>>>>in a
way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to
use
>>>>>what you know (or can find) in ways that enables
you
>>>to do more
>>>
>>>>>with little
or no effort.
>>>>>
>>>>>The SOA RM will not
specify how this is done but it must also not
>>>>>codify an
interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not
scale.
>>>>>
>>>>>End of
rant:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On
May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Forwarding
a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in
reading
>>>>>>it. Covers the notion of an integrated data
model as a foundational
>>>>>>concept; also presents a
6-layer approach to SOA (about
mid-article).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[1]
http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph
Chiusano
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Visit us online@
http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>>>--------------------
>>>>>Ken
Laskey
>>>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S
H305 phone:
703-983-7934
>>>>>7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
>>>>>
>>>703-983-1379
>>>
>>>
>>>>>McLean
VA 22102-7508
>>>>>
>>>>>*** note change of
phone extension from 883 to 983 effective
>>>>>4/15/2005
***
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>On May 6,
2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>The
critical line in this article
is
>>>>>
>>>>>This article does not discuss
how to integrate data models.
>>>>>
>>>>>Its
premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get
into
>>>>>a room and be reasonable we can all find a
common
>>>vocabulary to
>>>
>>>>>map
to. I could go on about when that works and when
>>>that
doesn't
>>>
>>>>>(see my OASIS Symposium
presentation for more) but if that is the
>>>>>basis of SOA,
then it will go no further than any
other
>>>integration
>>>
>>>>>paradigm.
The driving question is how do you create a
system
>>>>>(service?) to do semantic negotiation between
diverse
>>>vocabularies
>>>
>>>>>in a
way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to
use
>>>>>what you know (or can find) in ways that enables
you
>>>to do more
>>>
>>>>>with little
or no effort.
>>>>>
>>>>>The SOA RM will not
specify how this is done but it must also not
>>>>>codify an
interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not
scale.
>>>>>
>>>>>End of
rant:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On
May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Forwarding
a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in
reading
>>>>>>it. Covers the notion of an integrated data
model as a foundational
>>>>>>concept; also presents a
6-layer approach to SOA (about
mid-article).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[1]
http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Joseph
Chiusano
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Visit us online@
http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>>>--------------------
>>>>>Ken
Laskey
>>>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S
H305 phone:
703-983-7934
>>>>>7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
>>>>>
>>>703-983-1379
>>>
>>>
>>>>>McLean
VA 22102-7508
>>>>>
>>>>>*** note change of
phone extension from 883 to 983 effective
>>>>>4/15/2005
***
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
>--
>***********
>Senior
Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. - http://www.adobe.com
>Chair - OASIS
Service Oriented Architecture Reference Model Technical
>Committee - http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm
>Vice
Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>Adobe
Enterprise Developer Resources -
>http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>***********
>
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/
Ken
Laskey
\
| MITRE Corporation, M/S H305
phone: 703-983-7934 |
| 7515
Colshire
Drive
fax: 703-983-1379 |
\ McLean VA
22102-7508
/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***
note: phone number changed 4/15/2005 to 703-983-7934
***
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