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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
The rub is that we are not defining a data model. If there
was a
definitive SOA-RM DM, then perhaps a canonical data model would be
more
appropriate.
-matt
Duane Nickull wrote:
> Perhaps
you are correct sir!!
>
> What do others think?
>
>
Duane
>
>
>
>
> Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>
>> Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for
our purposes?
>> Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical*
data model[1]? If
>> that is not what is needed, please give specifics
as to why (i.e. I
>> think that "we don't need a data model" is too
general a statement).
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
Joe
>>
>> [1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html
>>
>>
Kind Regards,
>> Joseph Chiusano
>> Booz Allen
Hamilton
>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
-----Original Message-----
>>> From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May
06,
>>> 2005 1:13 PM
>>> To:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent
SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
>>> Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>
>>> IMHO, SOA should really be defined
independent of data model and a
>>> general definition of SOA should
support any strategy employable by
>>> data tiers. Defining the
notion of data model really seems out of
>>> scope to
me.
>>>
>>> On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph
<chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> These are
very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data
>>>>
model". Can you please clarify further what the
difference
>>>
>>> between a
"SOA data model"
>>>
>>>
>>>>
and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA
data
>>>> model" may now be a newly coined
term)
>>>>
>>>>
Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Joseph Chiusano
>>>>
>>>> Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>
>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
>>>> From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com]
>>>>
Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM
>>>> To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank
McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey'
>>>> Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good
Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
>>>> Model In Your SOA -
Best
Practices"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does
not
>>>
>>> scale with
time.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Eventually
it will not canonicalize but constrain the richness of
>>>>
communication that is expected among various SOA
entities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a) the interfaces used
by
>>>> SOA entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms
to
>>>
>>> discover
these
>>>
>>>> interfaces and (c)
mechanisms to negotiate a vocabulary/format for
>>>> data
exchange over these discovered
interfaces.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Vikas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com]
>>>>
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
>>>> To: Frank McCabe; Ken
Laskey
>>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML
Data
>>>> Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
I think some additional context may not have been provided
below.
>>>> While the article does state "This article does not
discuss how to
>>>> integrate data models", it is stated in the
context of
>>>
>>> "this
article
>>>
>>>> will not get into this
topic because it is either out
of
>>>
>>> scope or too complex
to
discuss".
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
The author is actually a strong proponent of having
an
>>>
>>> integrated
data
>>>
>>>> model, as they depict an
integrated data model as one
of
>>>
>>> the layers
of
>>>
>>>> their approach. I interpret
this as a "canonical
data
>>>
>>> model", which
is
>>>
>>>> a special type of data model
used for data
exchange.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Joseph Chiusano
>>>>
>>>> Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>
>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com]
>>>>
Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM
>>>> To: Ken
Laskey
>>>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph;
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good
Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data
>>>> Model In Your SOA -
Best Practices"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
+1
>>>>
Frank
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 6,
2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
The critical line in this article
is
>>>>>
>>>>> This article does not discuss
how to integrate data models.
>>>>>
>>>>>
Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all
get
>>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a
common
>>>>
>>>
vocabulary to
>>>
>>>>> map to.
I could go on about when that works and
when
>>>>
>>>
that doesn't
>>>
>>>>> (see my OASIS
Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the
>>>>>
basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any
other
>>>>
>>>
integration
>>>
>>>>> paradigm.
The driving question is how do you create a system
>>>>>
(service?) to do semantic negotiation between
diverse
>>>>
>>>
vocabularies
>>>
>>>>> in a way that
is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to
>>>>> use
what you know (or can find) in ways that enables
you
>>>>
>>> to
do more
>>>
>>>>> with little or no
effort.
>>>>>
>>>>> The SOA RM will not
specify how this is done but it must also not
>>>>> codify an
interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not
scale.
>>>>>
>>>>> End of
rant:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On
May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested
in
>>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated
data model as a
>>>>>> foundational concept; also presents
a 6-layer approach to SOA
>>>>>> (about
mid-article).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Booz
Allen Hamilton
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us
online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
--------------------
>>>>> Ken Laskey
>>>>>
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone:
703-983-7934
>>>>> 7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
>>>>
>>>
703-983-1379
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
McLean VA 22102-7508
>>>>>
>>>>> *** note
change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective
>>>>>
4/15/2005
***
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
The critical line in this article
is
>>>>>
>>>>> This article does not discuss
how to integrate data models.
>>>>>
>>>>>
Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all
get
>>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a
common
>>>>
>>>
vocabulary to
>>>
>>>>> map to.
I could go on about when that works and
when
>>>>
>>>
that doesn't
>>>
>>>>> (see my OASIS
Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the
>>>>>
basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any
other
>>>>
>>>
integration
>>>
>>>>> paradigm.
The driving question is how do you create a system
>>>>>
(service?) to do semantic negotiation between
diverse
>>>>
>>>
vocabularies
>>>
>>>>> in a way that
is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to
>>>>> use
what you know (or can find) in ways that enables
you
>>>>
>>> to
do more
>>>
>>>>> with little or no
effort.
>>>>>
>>>>> The SOA RM will not
specify how this is done but it must also not
>>>>> codify an
interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not
scale.
>>>>>
>>>>> End of
rant:-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On
May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested
in
>>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated
data model as a
>>>>>> foundational concept; also presents
a 6-layer approach to SOA
>>>>>> (about
mid-article).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
Joe
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Booz
Allen Hamilton
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit us
online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
--------------------
>>>>> Ken Laskey
>>>>>
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone:
703-983-7934
>>>>> 7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
>>>>
>>>
703-983-1379
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
McLean VA 22102-7508
>>>>>
>>>>> *** note
change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective
>>>>>
4/15/2005
***
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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