[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]
Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece:"Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
We are defining what a data model is, and how it relates to other components. We are not defining a canonical data model. That to me is clearly in the architecture realm. -matt Chiusano Joseph wrote: > Definitely not defining - but perhaps including as a component in our RM. > > Joe > > > Joseph Chiusano > > Booz Allen Hamilton > > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > <https://webmail.bah.com/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://www.boozallen.com/> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Matthew MacKenzie [mailto:mattm@adobe.com] > *Sent:* Mon 5/9/2005 1:07 PM > *To:* Duane Nickull > *Cc:* soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > *Subject:* Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > The rub is that we are not defining a data model. If there was a > definitive SOA-RM DM, then perhaps a canonical data model would be more > appropriate. > > -matt > Duane Nickull wrote: > > > Perhaps you are correct sir!! > > > > What do others think? > > > > Duane > > > > > > > > > > Chiusano Joseph wrote: > > > >> Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes? > >> Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data model[1]? If > >> that is not what is needed, please give specifics as to why (i.e. I > >> think that "we don't need a data model" is too general a statement). > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Joe > >> > >> [1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html > >> > >> Kind Regards, > >> Joseph Chiusano > >> Booz Allen Hamilton > >> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 06, > >>> 2005 1:13 PM > >>> To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > >>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > >>> > >>> IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of data model and a > >>> general definition of SOA should support any strategy employable by > >>> data tiers. Defining the notion of data model really seems out of > >>> scope to me. > >>> > >>> On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data > >>>> model". Can you please clarify further what the difference > >>> > >>> between a "SOA data model" > >>> > >>> > >>>> and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA data > >>>> model" may now be a newly coined term) > >>>> > >>>> Joe > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>> > >>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>> > >>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com] > >>>> Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM > >>>> To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey' > >>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > >>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not > >>> > >>> scale with time. > >>> > >>> > >>>> Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain the richness of > >>>> communication that is expected among various SOA entities. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a) the interfaces used by > >>>> SOA entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms to > >>> > >>> discover these > >>> > >>>> interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a vocabulary/format for > >>>> data exchange over these discovered interfaces. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Vikas > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] > >>>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM > >>>> To: Frank McCabe; Ken Laskey > >>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > >>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> I think some additional context may not have been provided below. > >>>> While the article does state "This article does not discuss how to > >>>> integrate data models", it is stated in the context of > >>> > >>> "this article > >>> > >>>> will not get into this topic because it is either out of > >>> > >>> scope or too complex to discuss". > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The author is actually a strong proponent of having an > >>> > >>> integrated data > >>> > >>>> model, as they depict an integrated data model as one of > >>> > >>> the layers of > >>> > >>>> their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical data > >>> > >>> model", which is > >>> > >>>> a special type of data model used for data exchange. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Joe > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>> > >>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>> > >>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ________________________________ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com] > >>>> Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM > >>>> To: Ken Laskey > >>>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > >>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> +1 > >>>> Frank > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> The critical line in this article is > >>>>> > >>>>> This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. > >>>>> > >>>>> Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get > >>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common > >>>> > >>> vocabulary to > >>> > >>>>> map to. I could go on about when that works and when > >>>> > >>> that doesn't > >>> > >>>>> (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the > >>>>> basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other > >>>> > >>> integration > >>> > >>>>> paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system > >>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse > >>>> > >>> vocabularies > >>> > >>>>> in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to > >>>>> use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you > >>>> > >>> to do more > >>> > >>>>> with little or no effort. > >>>>> > >>>>> The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not > >>>>> codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. > >>>>> > >>>>> End of rant:-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Ken > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in > >>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a > >>>>>> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA > >>>>>> (about mid-article). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joe > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>>>> -------------------- > >>>>> Ken Laskey > >>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 > >>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: > >>>> > >>> 703-983-1379 > >>> > >>> > >>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 > >>>>> > >>>>> *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective > >>>>> 4/15/2005 *** > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> The critical line in this article is > >>>>> > >>>>> This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. > >>>>> > >>>>> Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get > >>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common > >>>> > >>> vocabulary to > >>> > >>>>> map to. I could go on about when that works and when > >>>> > >>> that doesn't > >>> > >>>>> (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the > >>>>> basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other > >>>> > >>> integration > >>> > >>>>> paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system > >>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse > >>>> > >>> vocabularies > >>> > >>>>> in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to > >>>>> use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you > >>>> > >>> to do more > >>> > >>>>> with little or no effort. > >>>>> > >>>>> The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not > >>>>> codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. > >>>>> > >>>>> End of rant:-) > >>>>> > >>>>> Ken > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in > >>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a > >>>>>> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA > >>>>>> (about mid-article). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joe > >>>>>> > >>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>>>> -------------------- > >>>>> Ken Laskey > >>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 > >>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: > >>>> > >>> 703-983-1379 > >>> > >>> > >>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 > >>>>> > >>>>> *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective > >>>>> 4/15/2005 *** > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > >
[Date Prev] | [Thread Prev] | [Thread Next] | [Date Next] -- [Date Index] | [Thread Index] | [List Home]