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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"



It may be useful to discuss the types of data that one is likely to find in
a SOA. Specifically what is SOA data vs. service data. IMHO, service data is
private and not in the purview of SOA data model. The SOA data OTH is public
data and we would need to define a data model that facilitates its exchange,
discovery and negotiation. 


For example with the eaipatterns link you sent... It illustrates the
exchange data among entities. (the author refers to it as messages). Are
messages the only type of data in SOA? If so does the SOA data model have to
deal with data model of the message payload or just the headers?

IMHO, the SOA data model should treat message payload as private data and
not bother to abstract that in the SOA data model. The only data that is
relevant for SOA is the headers data. The headers are also referred to as
metadata in some reference models. Defining a canonical to metadata is
something I have never heard of.   

In general SOA data model should abstract only that data which is public and
relevant i.e. SOA data.

Vikas



-----Original Message-----
From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:02 AM
To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In
Your SOA - Best Practices"

Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes?
Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data model[1]? If
that is not what is needed, please give specifics as to why (i.e. I
think that "we don't need a data model" is too general a statement).

Thanks,
Joe

[1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html

Kind Regards,
Joseph Chiusano
Booz Allen Hamilton
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 1:13 PM
> To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML 
> Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
> 
> IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of data model 
> and a general definition of SOA should support any strategy 
> employable by data tiers. Defining the notion of data model 
> really seems out of scope to me.
> 
> On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote:
> > 
> > These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data 
> > model". Can you please clarify further what the difference 
> between a "SOA data model"
> > and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA data 
> > model" may now be a newly coined term)
> >  
> > Joe
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > Joseph Chiusano
> > 
> > Booz Allen Hamilton
> > 
> > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com]
> > Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM
> > To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey'
> > Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data 
> > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not 
> scale with time.
> > Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain the richness of 
> > communication that is expected among various SOA entities.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a)  the interfaces used by 
> > SOA entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms to 
> discover these 
> > interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a vocabulary/format for 
> > data exchange over these discovered interfaces.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Vikas
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > ________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com]
> > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
> > To: Frank McCabe; Ken Laskey
> > Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data 
> > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > I think some additional context may not have been provided below. 
> > While the article does state "This article does not discuss how to 
> > integrate data models", it is stated in the context of 
> "this article 
> > will not get into this topic because it is either out of 
> scope or too complex to discuss".
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > The author is actually a strong proponent of having an 
> integrated data 
> > model, as they depict an integrated data model as one of 
> the layers of 
> > their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical data 
> model", which is 
> > a special type of data model used for data exchange.
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > Joe
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > Joseph Chiusano
> > 
> > Booz Allen Hamilton
> > 
> > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > ________________________________
> > 
> > 
> > From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com]
> > Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM
> > To: Ken Laskey
> > Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data 
> > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
> > 
> > 
> > +1
> > Frank
> > 
> > 
> > On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote:
> > 
> > > The critical line in this article is
> > >
> > > This article does not discuss how to integrate data models.
> > >
> > > Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get 
> > > into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common 
> vocabulary to 
> > > map to.  I could go on about when that works and when 
> that doesn't 
> > > (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the 
> > > basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other 
> integration 
> > > paradigm.  The driving question is how do you create a system 
> > > (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse 
> vocabularies 
> > > in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to 
> > > use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you 
> to do more 
> > > with little or no effort.
> > >
> > > The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not 
> > > codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale.
> > >
> > > End of rant:-)
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in 
> > >> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a 
> > >> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA 
> > >> (about mid-article).
> > >>
> > >> Joe
> > >>
> > >> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Joseph Chiusano
> > >>
> > >> Booz Allen Hamilton
> > >>
> > >> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --------------------
> > > Ken Laskey
> > > MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-983-7934
> > > 7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        
> 703-983-1379
> > > McLean VA 22102-7508
> > >
> > > *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective
> > > 4/15/2005 ***
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote:
> > 
> > > The critical line in this article is
> > >
> > > This article does not discuss how to integrate data models.
> > >
> > > Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we all get 
> > > into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common 
> vocabulary to 
> > > map to.  I could go on about when that works and when 
> that doesn't 
> > > (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that is the 
> > > basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other 
> integration 
> > > paradigm.  The driving question is how do you create a system 
> > > (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse 
> vocabularies 
> > > in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) allows you to 
> > > use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you 
> to do more 
> > > with little or no effort.
> > >
> > > The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must also not 
> > > codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale.
> > >
> > > End of rant:-)
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in 
> > >> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a 
> > >> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA 
> > >> (about mid-article).
> > >>
> > >> Joe
> > >>
> > >> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Joseph Chiusano
> > >>
> > >> Booz Allen Hamilton
> > >>
> > >> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --------------------
> > > Ken Laskey
> > > MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-983-7934
> > > 7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        
> 703-983-1379
> > > McLean VA 22102-7508
> > >
> > > *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective
> > > 4/15/2005 ***
> > >
> > 
> >
> 




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