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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
> -----Original Message----- > From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com] > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 1:15 PM > To: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML > Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > > It may be useful to discuss the types of data that one is > likely to find in a SOA. Specifically what is SOA data vs. > service data. IMHO, service data is private and not in the > purview of SOA data model. The SOA data OTH is public data > and we would need to define a data model that facilitates its > exchange, discovery and negotiation. "Private" and "public" in relation to what/who? A network? Individuals? A service? > > For example with the eaipatterns link you sent... It > illustrates the exchange data among entities. (the author > refers to it as messages). Are messages the only type of data > in SOA? If so does the SOA data model have to deal with data > model of the message payload or just the headers? Hmmm....usually a message is comprised of headers + payload. Not sure what you are implying by the 3 sentences above. > IMHO, the SOA data model should treat message payload as > private data and not bother to abstract that in the SOA data > model. IMHO, we shouldn't even get beyond the concept of a message, if we go that far - so distinguishing between header and payload is probably too concrete for our RM. > The only data that is relevant for SOA is the headers > data. The payload is not relevant to the service consumer? (or whatever we are calling this entity) > The headers are also referred to as metadata in some > reference models. Defining a canonical to metadata is > something I have never heard of. > In general SOA data model should abstract only that data > which is public and relevant i.e. SOA data. Same questions as above: what is "SOA data"? Public to what/who? What does "relevant" mean here? (relevant for who?) Joe Joseph Chiusano Booz Allen Hamilton Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > Vikas > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 4:02 AM > To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML > Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes? > Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data > model[1]? If that is not what is needed, please give > specifics as to why (i.e. I think that "we don't need a data > model" is too general a statement). > > Thanks, > Joe > > [1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html > > Kind Regards, > Joseph Chiusano > Booz Allen Hamilton > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 1:13 PM > > To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > > > IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of data model and a > > general definition of SOA should support any strategy employable by > > data tiers. Defining the notion of data model really seems out of > > scope to me. > > > > On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote: > > > > > > These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data > > > model". Can you please clarify further what the difference > > between a "SOA data model" > > > and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA data > > > model" may now be a newly coined term) > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Chiusano > > > > > > Booz Allen Hamilton > > > > > > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com] > > > Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM > > > To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey' > > > Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an > XML Data > > > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not > > scale with time. > > > Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain the richness of > > > communication that is expected among various SOA entities. > > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a) the > interfaces used by > > > SOA entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms to > > discover these > > > interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a > vocabulary/format for > > > data exchange over these discovered interfaces. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vikas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] > > > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM > > > To: Frank McCabe; Ken Laskey > > > Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > > > Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an > XML Data > > > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think some additional context may not have been provided below. > > > While the article does state "This article does not > discuss how to > > > integrate data models", it is stated in the context of > > "this article > > > will not get into this topic because it is either out of > > scope or too complex to discuss". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The author is actually a strong proponent of having an > > integrated data > > > model, as they depict an integrated data model as one of > > the layers of > > > their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical data > > model", which is > > > a special type of data model used for data exchange. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joseph Chiusano > > > > > > Booz Allen Hamilton > > > > > > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com] > > > Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM > > > To: Ken Laskey > > > Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > > > Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an > XML Data > > > Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > > > > > > > > +1 > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: > > > > > > > The critical line in this article is > > > > > > > > This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. > > > > > > > > Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if > we all get > > > > into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common > > vocabulary to > > > > map to. I could go on about when that works and when > > that doesn't > > > > (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if > that is the > > > > basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other > > integration > > > > paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system > > > > (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse > > vocabularies > > > > in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) > allows you to > > > > use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you > > to do more > > > > with little or no effort. > > > > > > > > The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it > must also not > > > > codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. > > > > > > > > End of rant:-) > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in > > > >> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a > > > >> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA > > > >> (about mid-article). > > > >> > > > >> Joe > > > >> > > > >> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Joseph Chiusano > > > >> > > > >> Booz Allen Hamilton > > > >> > > > >> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------- > > > > Ken Laskey > > > > MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 > > > > 7515 Colshire Drive fax: > > 703-983-1379 > > > > McLean VA 22102-7508 > > > > > > > > *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective > > > > 4/15/2005 *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: > > > > > > > The critical line in this article is > > > > > > > > This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. > > > > > > > > Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if > we all get > > > > into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common > > vocabulary to > > > > map to. I could go on about when that works and when > > that doesn't > > > > (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if > that is the > > > > basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other > > integration > > > > paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system > > > > (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse > > vocabularies > > > > in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) > allows you to > > > > use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you > > to do more > > > > with little or no effort. > > > > > > > > The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it > must also not > > > > codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. > > > > > > > > End of rant:-) > > > > > > > > Ken > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in > > > >> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a > > > >> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA > > > >> (about mid-article). > > > >> > > > >> Joe > > > >> > > > >> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Joseph Chiusano > > > >> > > > >> Booz Allen Hamilton > > > >> > > > >> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -------------------- > > > > Ken Laskey > > > > MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 > > > > 7515 Colshire Drive fax: > > 703-983-1379 > > > > McLean VA 22102-7508 > > > > > > > > *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective > > > > 4/15/2005 *** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
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