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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
Here is a good article comparing modeling using canonical data model with exchange data model. http://wldj.sys-con.com/read/46310.htm Vikas -----Original Message----- From: Matthew MacKenzie [mailto:mattm@adobe.com] Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 6:16 PM To: SOA-RM Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" Joe, I can see something like "conceptual data model", and I agree that "data model" does seem kind of lonely. I just don't think that canonical works. Cheers, Matt On 9-May-05, at 8:58 PM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > Matt, > > I think I can clarify here: I'm in agreement that we should not be > defining any sort of data model - just including it notionally as a > component in our RM. Also, I'm recommending that we call such a > component a "canonical data model" because the term "data model" seems > (to me at least) to be too generic. As you know, we often see an > adjective in front of it, such as conceptual data model, logical, > physical, etc. Simply stating "data model" may make the reader > question > "why type of data model?". > > Or not - just wanted to bring it up for consideration. > > Joe > > Joseph Chiusano > Booz Allen Hamilton > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Matthew MacKenzie [mailto:mattm@adobe.com] >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 1:07 PM >> To: Duane Nickull >> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML >> Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >> >> The rub is that we are not defining a data model. If there >> was a definitive SOA-RM DM, then perhaps a canonical data >> model would be more appropriate. >> >> -matt >> Duane Nickull wrote: >> >> >>> Perhaps you are correct sir!! >>> >>> What do others think? >>> >>> Duane >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes? >>>> Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data >>>> >> model[1]? If >> >>>> that is not what is needed, please give specifics as to >>>> >> why (i.e. I >> >>>> think that "we don't need a data model" is too general a >>>> >> statement). >> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> [1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html >>>> >>>> Kind Regards, >>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 06, >>>>> 2005 1:13 PM >>>>> To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an >>>>> >> XML Data >> >>>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>>>> >>>>> IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of data >>>>> >> model and a >> >>>>> general definition of SOA should support any strategy >>>>> >> employable by >> >>>>> data tiers. Defining the notion of data model really seems out of >>>>> scope to me. >>>>> >>>>> On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA data >>>>>> model". Can you please clarify further what the difference >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> between a "SOA data model" >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe >>>>>> >> "SOA data >> >>>>>> model" may now be a newly coined term) >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>>> >>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com] >>>>>> Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM >>>>>> To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey' >>>>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing >>>>>> >> an XML Data >> >>>>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> scale with time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain the >>>>>> >> richness of >> >>>>>> communication that is expected among various SOA entities. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a) the >>>>>> >> interfaces used by >> >>>>>> SOA entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms to >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> discover these >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a >>>>>> >> vocabulary/format for >> >>>>>> data exchange over these discovered interfaces. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Vikas >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] >>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM >>>>>> To: Frank McCabe; Ken Laskey >>>>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing >>>>>> >> an XML Data >> >>>>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think some additional context may not have been >>>>>> >> provided below. >> >>>>>> While the article does state "This article does not >>>>>> >> discuss how to >> >>>>>> integrate data models", it is stated in the context of >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> "this article >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> will not get into this topic because it is either out of >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> scope or too complex to discuss". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The author is actually a strong proponent of having an >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> integrated data >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> model, as they depict an integrated data model as one of >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> the layers of >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical data >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> model", which is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> a special type of data model used for data exchange. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>>> >>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>> >>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com] >>>>>> Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM >>>>>> To: Ken Laskey >>>>>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing >>>>>> >> an XML Data >> >>>>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> +1 >>>>>> Frank >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> The critical line in this article is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if >>>>>>> >> we all get >> >>>>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> vocabulary to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> map to. I could go on about when that works and when >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> that doesn't >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if >>>>>>> >> that is the >> >>>>>>> basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> integration >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system >>>>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> vocabularies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) >>>>>>> >> allows you to >> >>>>>>> use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> to do more >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> with little or no effort. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it >>>>>>> >> must also not >> >>>>>>> codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> End of rant:-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ken >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in >>>>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a >>>>>>>> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA >>>>>>>> (about mid-article). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>>> Ken Laskey >>>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> 703-983-1379 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective >>>>>>> 4/15/2005 *** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> The critical line in this article is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if >>>>>>> >> we all get >> >>>>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> vocabulary to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> map to. I could go on about when that works and when >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> that doesn't >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if >>>>>>> >> that is the >> >>>>>>> basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> integration >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system >>>>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> vocabularies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) >>>>>>> >> allows you to >> >>>>>>> use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> to do more >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> with little or no effort. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it >>>>>>> >> must also not >> >>>>>>> codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> End of rant:-) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ken >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested in >>>>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data model as a >>>>>>>> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA >>>>>>>> (about mid-article). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------- >>>>>>> Ken Laskey >>>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> 703-983-1379 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective >>>>>>> 4/15/2005 *** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > >
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