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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
Conceptual data model - sold! Joe Joseph Chiusano Booz Allen Hamilton Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Matthew MacKenzie [mailto:mattm@adobe.com] > Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 9:16 PM > To: SOA-RM > Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML > Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > > Joe, > > I can see something like "conceptual data model", and I agree > that "data model" does seem kind of lonely. I just don't > think that canonical works. > > Cheers, > Matt > On 9-May-05, at 8:58 PM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > > > Matt, > > > > I think I can clarify here: I'm in agreement that we should not be > > defining any sort of data model - just including it notionally as a > > component in our RM. Also, I'm recommending that we call such a > > component a "canonical data model" because the term "data > model" seems > > (to me at least) to be too generic. As you know, we often see an > > adjective in front of it, such as conceptual data model, logical, > > physical, etc. Simply stating "data model" may make the reader > > question "why type of data model?". > > > > Or not - just wanted to bring it up for consideration. > > > > Joe > > > > Joseph Chiusano > > Booz Allen Hamilton > > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Matthew MacKenzie [mailto:mattm@adobe.com] > >> Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 1:07 PM > >> To: Duane Nickull > >> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data > >> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > >> > >> The rub is that we are not defining a data model. If there was a > >> definitive SOA-RM DM, then perhaps a canonical data model would be > >> more appropriate. > >> > >> -matt > >> Duane Nickull wrote: > >> > >> > >>> Perhaps you are correct sir!! > >>> > >>> What do others think? > >>> > >>> Duane > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Chiusano Joseph wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our purposes? > >>>> Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical* data > >>>> > >> model[1]? If > >> > >>>> that is not what is needed, please give specifics as to > >>>> > >> why (i.e. I > >> > >>>> think that "we don't need a data model" is too general a > >>>> > >> statement). > >> > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Joe > >>>> > >>>> [1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html > >>>> > >>>> Kind Regards, > >>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 06, > >>>>> 2005 1:13 PM > >>>>> To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an > >>>>> > >> XML Data > >> > >>>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > >>>>> > >>>>> IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of data > >>>>> > >> model and a > >> > >>>>> general definition of SOA should support any strategy > >>>>> > >> employable by > >> > >>>>> data tiers. Defining the notion of data model really > seems out of > >>>>> scope to me. > >>>>> > >>>>> On 5/6/05, Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term > "SOA data > >>>>>> model". Can you please clarify further what the difference > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> between a "SOA data model" > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I believe > >>>>>> > >> "SOA data > >> > >>>>>> model" may now be a newly coined term) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joe > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM > >>>>>> To: Chiusano Joseph; 'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey' > >>>>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing > >>>>>> > >> an XML Data > >> > >>>>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does not > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> scale with time. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain the > >>>>>> > >> richness of > >> > >>>>>> communication that is expected among various SOA entities. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a) the > >>>>>> > >> interfaces used by > >> > >>>>>> SOA entities to exchange information, (b) mechanisms to > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> discover these > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate a > >>>>>> > >> vocabulary/format for > >> > >>>>>> data exchange over these discovered interfaces. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Vikas > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM > >>>>>> To: Frank McCabe; Ken Laskey > >>>>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing > >>>>>> > >> an XML Data > >> > >>>>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I think some additional context may not have been > >>>>>> > >> provided below. > >> > >>>>>> While the article does state "This article does not > >>>>>> > >> discuss how to > >> > >>>>>> integrate data models", it is stated in the context of > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> "this article > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> will not get into this topic because it is either out of > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> scope or too complex to discuss". > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The author is actually a strong proponent of having an > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> integrated data > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> model, as they depict an integrated data model as one of > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> the layers of > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical data > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> model", which is > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> a special type of data model used for data exchange. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joe > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ________________________________ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com] > >>>>>> Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM > >>>>>> To: Ken Laskey > >>>>>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing > >>>>>> > >> an XML Data > >> > >>>>>> Model In Your SOA - Best Practices" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> +1 > >>>>>> Frank > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> The critical line in this article is > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if > >>>>>>> > >> we all get > >> > >>>>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> vocabulary to > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> map to. I could go on about when that works and when > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> that doesn't > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if > >>>>>>> > >> that is the > >> > >>>>>>> basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> integration > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system > >>>>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> vocabularies > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) > >>>>>>> > >> allows you to > >> > >>>>>>> use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> to do more > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> with little or no effort. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it > >>>>>>> > >> must also not > >> > >>>>>>> codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> End of rant:-) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ken > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those > interested in > >>>>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data > model as a > >>>>>>>> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer > approach to SOA > >>>>>>>> (about mid-article). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> -------------------- > >>>>>>> Ken Laskey > >>>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 > >>>>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> 703-983-1379 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective > >>>>>>> 4/15/2005 *** > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> The critical line in this article is > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> This article does not discuss how to integrate data models. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if > >>>>>>> > >> we all get > >> > >>>>>>> into a room and be reasonable we can all find a common > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> vocabulary to > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> map to. I could go on about when that works and when > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> that doesn't > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> (see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if > >>>>>>> > >> that is the > >> > >>>>>>> basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any other > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> integration > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a system > >>>>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation between diverse > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> vocabularies > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3) > >>>>>>> > >> allows you to > >> > >>>>>>> use what you know (or can find) in ways that enables you > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> to do more > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> with little or no effort. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it > >>>>>>> > >> must also not > >> > >>>>>>> codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not scale. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> End of rant:-) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ken > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those > interested in > >>>>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an integrated data > model as a > >>>>>>>> foundational concept; also presents a 6-layer > approach to SOA > >>>>>>>> (about mid-article). > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >> > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> -------------------- > >>>>>>> Ken Laskey > >>>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 > >>>>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> 703-983-1379 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> *** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983 effective > >>>>>>> 4/15/2005 *** > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > >
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