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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
et al....
When trying to nail down the introduction to
semantics, the data
model seems to be part of the overall story. There
appear to be
several distinct levels of understanding of a
service:
1. The mechanicals -- where the service is, what types of bytes
to
squirt at it and so on. This *is* part of the semantics of a
service;
and there are a significant number of services which can
be
completely characterized at this level (e.g., message
forwarding
service)
2. The syntax -- what kinds of data, what
structures does the service
chew on. This is the *data model* level of
the semantics. I
personally would include things like choreography at
this level also.
3. The effect -- what is the result and what are the
preconditions of
interacting with a service.
4. The context -- when
should the service be invoked, who owns it
etc. etc.
(I have not
done complete justice to what is in the pipeline btw.)
The datamodel
aspect, it seems to me, fits both in level 2 and in
level 3. Things
like XML schema are definitely level 2. If you
include ontology in data
model, then it is a level 3 phenomenon.
Incidentally, the nice thing
about this analysis is that it parallels
linguistics: language can
similarly be analysed in terms of
morphology, syntax, semantics and
pragmatics.
Frank
On May 9, 2005, at 6:16 PM, Matthew
MacKenzie wrote:
> Joe,
>
> I can see something like
"conceptual data model", and I agree that
> "data model" does seem
kind of lonely. I just don't think that
> canonical
works.
>
> Cheers,
> Matt
> On 9-May-05, at 8:58 PM,
Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>
>
>> Matt,
>>
>>
I think I can clarify here: I'm in agreement that we should not be
>>
defining any sort of data model - just including it notionally as a
>>
component in our RM. Also, I'm recommending that we call such a
>>
component a "canonical data model" because the term "data
model"
>> seems
>> (to me at least) to be too generic.
As you know, we often see an
>> adjective in front of it, such as
conceptual data model, logical,
>> physical, etc. Simply stating "data
model" may make the reader
>> question
>> "why type of
data model?".
>>
>> Or not - just wanted to bring it up for
consideration.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Joseph
Chiusano
>> Booz Allen Hamilton
>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
-----Original Message-----
>>> From: Matthew MacKenzie [mailto:mattm@adobe.com]
>>> Sent:
Monday, May 09, 2005 1:07 PM
>>> To: Duane Nickull
>>>
Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good
Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML
>>> Data Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>
>>> The rub is that we are not defining a
data model. If there
>>> was a definitive SOA-RM DM, then
perhaps a canonical data
>>> model would be more
appropriate.
>>>
>>> -matt
>>> Duane Nickull
wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
Perhaps you are correct sir!!
>>>>
>>>> What do
others think?
>>>>
>>>>
Duane
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
Isn't the notion of a "data model" too general for our
purposes?
>>>>> Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a
*canonical* data
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
model[1]? If
>>>
>>>
>>>>> that is not
what is needed, please give specifics as
to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> why (i.e.
I
>>>
>>>
>>>>> think that "we don't
need a data model" is too general
a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
statement).
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
Thanks,
>>>>>
Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
Kind Regards,
>>>>> Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>
Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
-----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May
06,
>>>>>> 2005 1:13 PM
>>>>>> To:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm]
Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing
an
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>> XML
Data
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> Model In Your
SOA - Best Practices"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
IMHO, SOA should really be defined independent of
data
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
model and a
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> general
definition of SOA should support any
strategy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
employable by
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> data
tiers. Defining the notion of data model really seems out
of
>>>>>> scope to
me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5/6/05, Chiusano
Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
These are very interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA
data
>>>>>>> model". Can you please clarify further what
the
difference
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
between a "SOA data
model"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
and a "canonical data model" would be? (since I
believe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
"SOA data
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> model"
may now be a newly coined
term)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit
us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
________________________________
>>>>>>> From: Vikas
Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com]
>>>>>>>
Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37 PM
>>>>>>> To: Chiusano Joseph;
'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey'
>>>>>>> Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>>> Subject: RE:
[soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece:
"Managing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
an XML Data
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
The problem with "canonical data model" is that it does
not
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
scale with
time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Eventually it will not canonicalize but constrain
the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
richness of
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
communication that is expected among various SOA
entities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
IMHO SOA data mode should aim to define (a)
the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
interfaces used
by
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> SOA entities
to exchange information, (b) mechanisms
to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
discover
these
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
interfaces and (c) mechanisms to negotiate
a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
vocabulary/format
for
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>> data
exchange over these discovered
interfaces.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Vikas
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com]
>>>>>>>
Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23 AM
>>>>>>> To: Frank
McCabe; Ken Laskey
>>>>>>> Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>>> Subject: RE:
[soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece:
"Managing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
an XML Data
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
I think some additional context may not have
been
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
provided below.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
While the article does state "This article does
not
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
discuss how to
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
integrate data models", it is stated in the context
of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
"this
article
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
will not get into this topic because it is either out
of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
scope or too complex to
discuss".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
The author is actually a strong proponent of having
an
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
integrated
data
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
model, as they depict an integrated data model as one
of
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
the layers
of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
their approach. I interpret this as a "canonical
data
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
model", which
is
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
a special type of data model used for data
exchange.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit
us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com]
>>>>>>>
Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM
>>>>>>> To: Ken
Laskey
>>>>>>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph;
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re:
[soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece:
"Managing
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
an XML Data
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>
Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
+1
>>>>>>>
Frank
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey
wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
The critical line in this article
is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This
article does not discuss how to integrate data
models.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that
if
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
we all get
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>
into a room and be reasonable we can all find a
common
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
vocabulary
to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
map to. I could go on about when that works and
when
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
that
doesn't
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
(see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but
if
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
that is the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>
basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any
other
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
integration
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a
system
>>>>>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation
between
diverse
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
vocabularies
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and
(3)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
allows you
to
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> use what
you know (or can find) in ways that enables
you
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
to do
more
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
with little or no
effort.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but
it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
must also
not
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> codify
an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not
scale.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
End of
rant:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
Ken
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested
in
>>>>>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an
integrated data model as a
>>>>>>>>> foundational
concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to
SOA
>>>>>>>>> (about
mid-article).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Joe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Joseph
Chiusano
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
--
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
--------------------
>>>>>>>> Ken
Laskey
>>>>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S
H305 phone:
703-983-7934
>>>>>>>> 7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
703-983-1379
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
McLean VA
22102-7508
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
*** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983
effective
>>>>>>>> 4/15/2005
***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
On May 6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey
wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
The critical line in this article
is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This
article does not discuss how to integrate data
models.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
Its premise is the tried (and usually failed) that
if
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
we all get
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>
into a room and be reasonable we can all find a
common
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
vocabulary
to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
map to. I could go on about when that works and
when
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
that
doesn't
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
(see my OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but
if
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
that is the
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>
basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any
other
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
integration
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a
system
>>>>>>>> (service?) to do semantic negotiation
between
diverse
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
vocabularies
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
in a way that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and
(3)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
allows you
to
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> use what
you know (or can find) in ways that enables
you
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
to do
more
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
with little or no
effort.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
The SOA RM will not specify how this is done but
it
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
must also
not
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>> codify
an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not
scale.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
End of
rant:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
Ken
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
On May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those interested
in
>>>>>>>>> reading it. Covers the notion of an
integrated data model as a
>>>>>>>>> foundational
concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to
SOA
>>>>>>>>> (about
mid-article).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Joe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Joseph
Chiusano
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
--
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
--------------------
>>>>>>>> Ken
Laskey
>>>>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S
H305 phone:
703-983-7934
>>>>>>>> 7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
703-983-1379
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
McLean VA
22102-7508
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
*** note change of phone extension from 883 to 983
effective
>>>>>>>> 4/15/2005
***
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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