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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML Data Model In Your SOA - Best Practices"
Duane,
Terminology from my day job is slipping in.
I have been MITRE lead for
NCES (Net-centric Core Enterprise Services)
mediation services. One
description I've used is
The Mediation
product family provides value-added services for exchange of
resources
between producers and consumers. [Note: resources could be data
or
processing resources; I included this in an example in the service
section
draft I sent in.] While it will be possible for users to
interact
directly with individual services, the Mediation family will provide
core
capabilities that will often be needed when resource suppliers
and
consumers are diverse and distributed. In addition, Mediation looks
to
enabling resources that were not originally built to participate in
a
service environment and thus provides a path for incorporating
existing
capabilities without requiring major rework.
Included in
mediation is data transformation (provide conversion from
native format of
some source to a second format required by some user) and
data
fusion/aggregation (access data from multiple sources, apply
data
transformations as required, and apply rules to create composite
data
products).
Now I do not expect the reference model to
specifically "require" such
services, but without implying any specific
implementation I believe we may
want to consider including some discussion of
capabilities such as these if
SOA is to provide anywhere near the grand set
of magic attributed to it.
I see there is more mail on this so I'll check
those to see if there is
anything else more RM-ish to
add.
Ken
At 01:09 PM 5/10/2005, Duane Nickull
wrote:
>Ken:
>
>I would like to explore the notion of
"mediation" service. Is it actually
>mediating? XSLT is
declarative and very deterministic. You have a tree
>model of your
entire document, then XSLT processors read an instruction
>and test the
case against the input tree. If the condition matches, then
>it does
the second part of the declaration (usually to write out to a new
>tree
model). It seems to be reduced to a simply set of decision
points.
>
>Duane
>
>Ken Laskey
wrote:
>
>>Joe,
>>
>>I see there being two sets
of vocabularies (data models?) in our SOA
>>discussion. The first is
the vocabulary relevant to describing a SOA. We
>>are
developing/collecting that as part of the RM and that will
hopefully
>>facilitate the discussion of SOA by others. The second set
is the domain
>>vocabularies of the various SOA users. These
vocabularies are specific to
>>specific domains of discourse. These
overlap (otherwise, there would be
>>no need for interaction) and is
the focus of most integration efforts. It
>>is for the second set that
the idea of an
>>interchange/compromise/hub-and-spoke/... vocabulary is
introduced to
>>mediate the exchange of information within a consistent
semantic
>>framework. I am interpreting the term "canonical" to refer
to that
>>interchange vocabulary. While this is a standard approach, I
contend it
>>is limited and does not scale. Thus, I'm saying the RM may
include the
>>concept of a mediation service to facilitate information
interchange
>>across vocabularies. If the situation is simple enough
that the
>>interchange vocabulary is sufficient, then this is the
implementation of
>>the mediation service used. (It could be a single
hardwired translation
>>or a more general service that, for example,
processes any XSLT input.)
>>However, the idea of a mediation service
does not codify the use of a
>>canonical vocabulary as the means to
accomplish this functionality.
>>
>>I could not figure out how
to reference the presentation I gave at the
>>recent OASIS Symposium
(is there a way to find past presentations on the
>>OASIS Web site?) so
I uploaded it to the Member Submission area of the
>>TC. Please see
slide 4.
>>
>>If I am misinterpreting what you mean by a
canonical data model,
please
>>clarify.
>>
>>Ken
>>
>>
>>
>>On
May 9, 2005, at 9:06 PM, Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>
>> Please help me understand
the difference between the concept of
>>
canonical data model in the link provided earlier in the
thread
>> below, and what we need to define.
I'm very sorry that I am not
>> understanding
here. What is the gap? (yes, I know it's a
clothing
>>
store;)
>>
>>
Joe
>>
>> Joseph
Chiusano
>> Booz Allen
Hamilton
>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
>>
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 1:22 PM
>> To:
Chiusano Joseph; Duane Nickull
>> Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>> Subject: RE:
[soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML
Data
>> Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>
>> If we are basing our
concept of SOA on the diagram in the link
you
>> provide, then I object. It works
in certain limited situations
>> but does not
scale as a global solution. Even for the
limited
>> cases, there is no extension that
adequately covers how to connect
>> the
successes of the limited cases. This does not mean you
should
>> never use a canonical vocabulary,
just know its limitations and be
>> prepared to
keep moving on to the next level
solution.
>>
>>
Ken
>>
>> At 01:07 PM 5/9/2005,
Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>>
>>
<Quote>
>> If you want to come up with a
"canonical" vocabulary to capture
>> SOA
semantics as will be described in the reference model, that
is
>> fine because it will be the SOA-RM
vocabulary. Do not expect it
>> to
provide general translation capabilities for all
services.
>>
</Quote>
>>
>>
Ken,
>>
>> I don't know that we would
actually come up with such a SOA-RM
>>
vocabulary - instead, I foresee the possibility of our
including
>> the notion of a canonical data
model as a component within our
>>
specification.
>>
>>
Joe
>>
>>
>> Joseph
Chiusano<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
>>
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/>
>>
>> Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>
>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>
>>
From: Ken Laskey [ mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
>>
Sent: Mon 5/9/2005 12:57 PM
>> To: Duane
Nickull
>> Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>> Subject: Re:
[soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an XML
Data
>> Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>
>>
>> I'll go
back to my comments on 5/6 re Good Recent SOA
Piece:
>>
>>
<recap>
>> The critical line in this
article is
>>
>> This article does not
discuss how to integrate data
models.
>>
>> Its premise is the tried
(and usually failed) that if we all get
>> into
a
>> room and be reasonable we can all find a
common vocabulary to map
>> to.
I
>> could go on about when that works and when
that doesn't (see my OASIS
>> Symposium
presentation for more) but if that is the basis of
SOA,
>> then
it
>> will go no further than any other
integration paradigm. The driving
>> question
is how do you create a system (service?) to do
semantic
>> negotiation between diverse
vocabularies in a way that is (1)
>> visible,
(2)
>> reusable, and (3) allows you to use what
you know (or can find) in
>>
ways
>> that enables you to do more with little
or no effort.
>>
>> The SOA RM will
not specify how this is done but it must also
not
>> codify
an
>> interchange vocabulary paradigm that will
not scale.
>>
>> End of
rant:-)
>>
</recap>
>>
>> If you want to
come up with a "canonical" vocabulary to capture
SOA
>> semantics as will be described in the
reference model, that is
>> fine
because
>> it will be the SOA-RM
vocabulary. Do not expect it to
provide
>>
general
>> translation capabilities for all
services.
>>
>> Being trained as a
fluid mechanics engineer, I see this as the
>>
classic
>> nozzle where things funnel down from
one large plenum to a minimum
>>
flow
>> passage and then expands into a second
large plenum. The problem
>> is
the
>> minimum flow can be a choke point.
It works the same way with
>>
vocabulary
>>
translation.
>>
>>
Ken
>>
>>
>> At 12:38 PM
5/9/2005, Duane Nickull wrote:
>> >Perhaps
you are correct sir!!
>>
>
>> >What do others
think?
>>
>
>>
>Duane
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> >Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>
>
>> >>Isn't the notion of a "data
model" too general for our purposes?
>>
>>Shouldn't we be thinking in terms of a *canonical*
data
>> model[1]?
If
>> >>that is not what is needed,
please give specifics as to why (i.e. I
>>
>>think that "we don't need a data model" is too general
a
>>
statement).
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Joe
>>
>>
>> >>[1] http://www.eaipatterns.com/CanonicalDataModel.html
>>
>>
>> >>Kind
Regards,
>> >>Joseph
Chiusano
>> >>Booz Allen
Hamilton
>> >>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >>>-----Original
Message-----
>> >>>From: John Harby
[mailto:jharby@gmail.com] Sent: Friday,
May
>> 06,
2005
>> >>>1:13
PM
>> >>>To:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>
>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an
XML
>> Data
Model
>> >>>In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>
>>>
>> >>>IMHO, SOA should
really be defined independent of data model and
a
>> >>>general definition of SOA
should support any strategy
>> employable by
data
>> >>>tiers. Defining the notion
of data model really seems out of
>> scope to
me.
>>
>>>
>> >>>On 5/6/05, Chiusano
Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>> >>>>These are very
interesting thoughts - I like the term "SOA
>>
data model".
>> >>>>Can you please
clarify further what the difference
>>
>>>between a "SOA data model"
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>> >>>>and a
"canonical data model" would be? (since I believe "SOA
data
>> >>>>model" may now be a
newly coined term)
>>
>>>>Joe
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>Joseph
Chiusano
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>Visit us
online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>________________________________
>>
>>>>From: Vikas Deolaliker [mailto:vikas@sonoasystems.com
]
>> >>>>Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:37
PM
>> >>>>To: Chiusano Joseph;
'Frank McCabe'; 'Ken Laskey'
>>
>>>>Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>
>>>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an
XML
>> Data
>>
>>>>Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>The problem
with "canonical data model" is that it does
not
>> >>>scale with
time.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>> >>>>Eventually it
will not canonicalize but constrain the richness
of
>> >>>>communication that is
expected among various SOA entities.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>IMHO SOA
data mode should aim to define (a) the
interfaces
>> used by
SOA
>> >>>>entities to exchange
information, (b) mechanisms to
>>
>>>discover these
>>
>>>
>> >>>>interfaces and
(c) mechanisms to negotiate a
vocabulary/format
>> for
data
>> >>>>exchange over these
discovered interfaces.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>Vikas
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>________________________________
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>From:
Chiusano Joseph [ mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com]
>>
>>>>Sent: Friday, May 06, 2005 9:23
AM
>> >>>>To: Frank McCabe; Ken
Laskey
>> >>>>Cc:
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>
>>>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an
XML
>> Data
>>
>>>>Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>I think
some additional context may not have been
provided
>> below.
While
>> >>>>the article does state
"This article does not discuss how to
>>
integrate
>> >>>>data models", it
is stated in the context of
>>
>>>"this article
>>
>>>
>> >>>>will not get
into this topic because it is either out of
>>
>>>scope or too complex to
discuss".
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>The author
is actually a strong proponent of having an
>>
>>>integrated data
>>
>>>
>> >>>>model, as they
depict an integrated data model as one of
>>
>>>the layers of
>>
>>>
>> >>>>their approach.
I interpret this as a "canonical data
>>
>>>model", which is
>>
>>>
>> >>>>a special type
of data model used for data exchange.
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>Joe
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>Joseph
Chiusano
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>Booz Allen
Hamilton
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>Visit us
online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>________________________________
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>From: Frank
McCabe [ mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com]
>>
>>>>Sent: Fri 5/6/2005 12:03 PM
>>
>>>>To: Ken Laskey
>>
>>>>Cc: Chiusano Joseph;
soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>
>>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Good Recent SOA Piece: "Managing an
XML
>> Data
>>
>>>>Model In Your SOA - Best
Practices"
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>+1
>>
>>>>Frank
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>On May 6,
2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>>The
critical line in this article is
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>This article does not discuss how to integrate data
models.
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>Its
premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we
all
>> get
into
>> >>>>>a room and be
reasonable we can all find a common
>>
>>>vocabulary to
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>map
to. I could go on about when that works and
when
>> >>>that
doesn't
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>(see my
OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that
is
>> the
>>
>>>>>basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any
other
>>
>>>integration
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a
system
>> >>>>>(service?) to do
semantic negotiation between diverse
>>
>>>vocabularies
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>in a way
that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3)
allows
>> you to
use
>> >>>>>what you know (or
can find) in ways that enables you
>>
>>>to do more
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>with little
or no effort.
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>The
SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must
also
>> not
>>
>>>>>codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not
scale.
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>End
of rant:-)
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>Ken
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>On
May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those
interested
>> in
reading
>> >>>>>>it. Covers
the notion of an integrated data model as a
>>
foundational
>>
>>>>>>concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA
(about
>>
mid-article).
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Joe
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Joseph Chiusano
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>--------------------
>>
>>>>>Ken Laskey
>>
>>>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305
phone: 703-983-7934
>>
>>>>>7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>703-983-1379
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>McLean VA
22102-7508
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>***
note change of phone extension from 883 to 983
effective
>> >>>>>4/15/2005
***
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>On May
6, 2005, at 8:45 AM, Ken Laskey wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>>>
>> >>>>>The
critical line in this article is
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>This article does not discuss how to integrate data
models.
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>Its
premise is the tried (and usually failed) that if we
all
>> get
into
>> >>>>>a room and be
reasonable we can all find a common
>>
>>>vocabulary to
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>map
to. I could go on about when that works and
when
>> >>>that
doesn't
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>(see my
OASIS Symposium presentation for more) but if that
is
>> the
>>
>>>>>basis of SOA, then it will go no further than any
other
>>
>>>integration
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>paradigm. The driving question is how do you create a
system
>> >>>>>(service?) to do
semantic negotiation between diverse
>>
>>>vocabularies
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>in a way
that is (1) visible, (2) reusable, and (3)
allows
>> you to
use
>> >>>>>what you know (or
can find) in ways that enables you
>>
>>>to do more
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>with little
or no effort.
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>The
SOA RM will not specify how this is done but it must
also
>> not
>>
>>>>>codify an interchange vocabulary paradigm that will not
scale.
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>End
of rant:-)
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>Ken
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>On
May 6, 2005, at 10:32 AM, Chiusano Joseph
wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Forwarding a good recent SOA piece[1] for those
interested
>> in
reading
>> >>>>>>it. Covers
the notion of an integrated data model as a
>>
foundational
>>
>>>>>>concept; also presents a 6-layer approach to SOA
(about
>>
mid-article).
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Joe
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>[1] http://www.tdan.com/i032ht02.htm
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Joseph Chiusano
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>
>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>>--------------------
>>
>>>>>Ken Laskey
>>
>>>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305
phone: 703-983-7934
>>
>>>>>7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>703-983-1379
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>> >>>>>McLean VA
22102-7508
>>
>>>>>
>> >>>>>***
note change of phone extension from 883 to 983
effective
>> >>>>>4/15/2005
***
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>
>--
>>
>***********
>> >Senior Standards
Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. -
>> http://www.adobe.com
>>
>Chair - OASIS Service Oriented Architecture Reference
Model
>>
Technical
>> >Committee
-
>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm
>>
>Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>>
>Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources
-
>> > http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>>
>***********
>>
>
>>
>>
--
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
/ Ken
>>
Laskey
>>
\
>> | MITRE
Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
|
>> | 7515
Colshire
Drive
fax:
>> 703-983-1379
|
>> \ McLean
VA
>>
22102-7508
/
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
*** note: phone number changed 4/15/2005 to 703-983-7934
***
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
--
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
/ Ken
>>
Laskey
>>
\
>> | MITRE
Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
|
>> | 7515 Colshire
Drive
fax:
>> 703-983-1379
|
>> \ McLean
VA
>>
22102-7508
/
>>
>>
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
*** note: phone number changed 4/15/2005 to 703-983-7934
***
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Ken
Laskey
>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone:
703-983-7934
>>7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379
>>McLean
VA 22102-7508
>>
>>*** note change of phone extension from 883
to 983 effective 4/15/2005
***
>
>--
>***********
>Senior Standards Strategist -
Adobe Systems, Inc. - http://www.adobe.com
>Chair - OASIS
Service Oriented Architecture Reference Model Technical
>Committee - http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm
>Vice
Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>Adobe
Enterprise Developer Resources -
>http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>***********
>
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/
Ken
Laskey
\
| MITRE Corporation, M/S H305
phone: 703-983-7934 |
| 7515
Colshire
Drive
fax: 703-983-1379 |
\ McLean VA
22102-7508
/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***
note: phone number changed 4/15/2005 to 703-983-7934
***
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