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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Definition of business
I cannot imagine a legitimate reason to define or use the word "business" in our specification. -matt Duane Nickull wrote: > John: > > Thank you - that is more elegantly stated that the way I wrote that > question. > > Anyone care to post an opinion? > > Duane > > John Harby wrote: > >> What value does it add to use 'business' as opposed to some more >> generic term? >> >> On 5/11/05, Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> wrote: >> >> >>> Ken: >>> >>> I still think this may weight in as too specific and constrictive. The >>> gist seems to be the "the activities undertaken to accomplish goals", >>> regardless of the the type of entity owning or operating the IT. >>> >>> For sake of clarity, can we not use the term "business"? Or does >>> anyone >>> believe we absolutely need to use that word. >>> >>> Duane >>> >>> Ken Laskey wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> But do we also need to cover >>>> >>>> business: the goals expressed by an organization and the activities >>>> undertaken to accomplish those goals >>>> >>>> Ken >>>> >>>> At 08:31 AM 5/11/2005, Peter F Brown wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Duane: >>>>> >>>>> I take Martin's point but there is a difference between the >>>>> "business" as an >>>>> organisational entity; and "business" as the work/mission that the >>>>> entity >>>>> undertakes. I would prefer "enterprise" or "organisation", but could >>>>> livewith "business" provided there is a clear definition in the >>>>> glossary as >>>>> you suggest. >>>>> >>>>> If "business" it is to be, then I'd propose for the glossary: >>>>> >>>>> "Business: any organisation, enterprise or undertaking, whether >>>>> for-profit, >>>>> voluntary or governmental in nature, with a particular mission and >>>>> structure" >>>>> >>>>> Peter >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com] >>>>> Sent: 11 May 2005 04:24 >>>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Why do we need SOA? (proposal for Introduction >>>>> text) >>>>> >>>>> Martin: >>>>> >>>>> Yes - I know in our current context it is implicitly understood >>>>> however I do >>>>> want to keep our focus a bit strict about this to ensure that when >>>>> someone >>>>> picks up this RM 5 years from now it is still pretty clear. If there >>>>> is a >>>>> term that is not necessary to use that may cast ambiguity, we should >>>>> probably error on the side of safety. >>>>> >>>>> If this becomes as popular as the OSI stack, we have to strive to >>>>> make sure >>>>> that 10 years from now people don't discard it because it only >>>>> applies to >>>>> business. >>>>> >>>>> Perhaps we should define it in the glossary if we did keep it in. >>>>> >>>>> Duane >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Smith, Martin wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Duane - - I wouldn't lose sleep over the term "business." We (in >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Government) use it all the time as synonymous with "mission". We >>>>> talk about >>>>> "business case", "business value", "business impact", "business >>>>> owner" and >>>>> "business process." It often is used to contrast with "non-business" >>>>> functions or considerations like "support" or "infrastructure" or >>>>> "administrative" or "compliance". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com] >>>>>> Sent: Tue 5/10/2005 12:05 PM >>>>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Why do we need SOA? (proposal for Introduction >>>>>> text) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I would object to any statement or notion that made SOA only SOA >>>>>> in the >>>>>> context of 'business', however I think I understand the intent of >>>>>> the >>>>>> statement and agree. Business is one type of user. Department of >>>>>> Homeland Security is not a business yet they ill have SOA (at least >>>>>> Martin hasn't tried to sell me anything yet ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps we could re-state it as an IT need, written in a way that >>>>>> speaks to business and government users. This is harder than it >>>>>> appears and I failed at it miserably but would love to hear your >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> guys take. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Something like (but not) this: >>>>>> >>>>>> "SOA is an architectural model developed to enable those who >>>>>> build and >>>>>> maintain IT systems to repurpose components rapidly for new >>>>>> functionality. This enables them to respond quickly and in an >>>>>> economically efficient manner to new requirements" >>>>>> >>>>>> Does that make sense? >>>>>> >>>>>> Duane >>>>>> >>>>>> Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sally, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I like your comment regarding SOA being a response for business, >>>>>>> and I >>>>>>> believe it is completely true. A general question for us: Since >>>>>>> we are >>>>>>> approaching SOA from the technical perspective (at least that is my >>>>>>> understanding), wouldn't it be out of our scope to refer to the >>>>>>> business aspects of SOA (i.e. that SOA encapsulates business >>>>>>> services >>>>>>> in....etc. etc.)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>>>> <http://www.boozallen.com/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> From: Sally St. Amand [mailto:sallystamand@yahoo.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 9:17 PM >>>>>>> To: Smith, Martin; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Why do we need SOA? (proposal for >>>>>>> Introduction text) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> I like your thoughts and agree that SOA is a response to the >>>>>>> characteristics of the internet that you list. I also think >>>>>>> SOA is >>>>>>> a response for business. >>>>>>> We need to answer your question, otherwise SOA will be ( or is >>>>>>> already ) viewed as a marketing ploy >>>>>>> See additional thoughts below. >>>>>>> Sally >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Smith, Martin" <Martin.Smith@DHS.GOV> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> List - - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I sent essentially this same message in the thread "[soa-rm] >>>>>>> When Is An SOA Really An SOA?" a while back, but got no >>>>>>> response. Thought I'd try again to see if no-one noticed >>>>>>> it or >>>>>>> no-one liked it . . . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm proposing we include something like the following in the >>>>>>> Introduction. As several people have observed, we all tended >>>>>>> to jump right in to the details of "what is an SOA" without >>>>>>> nailing down the answer to the "why should I [the reader] >>>>>>> care?" question. As we learned in the f2f discussion, many of >>>>>>> us on the TC care because it's our job to explain to others >>>>>>> why we all seem to think we need this 'SOA' thing (other than >>>>>>> that it keeps being in the news!) I'm guessing that if we can >>>>>>> understand why SOA has become a buzzword, we'll clarify the >>>>>>> "essential definition" question. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, here's what I think is driving SOA: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "The SOA concept has emerged in response to the need for an >>>>>>> approach to application architecture that is well adapted to >>>>>>> the I! nternet environment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> SOA is a strategy that organizes an enterprises functionality >>>>>>> as services that can be aggregated and/or reused in order to >>>>>>> achieve business goal(s). To take advantage of services over >>>>>>> the internet there has to be the ability to understand, >>>>>>> discover, combine and use the services that reside within the >>>>>>> enterprise or anywhere on the internet. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Internet has revolutionized personal communications with >>>>>>> e-mail, and "B-to-C" transactions with the World-Wide Web. >>>>>>> Following the exploitation path of other technologies, the >>>>>>> Internet may be expected to have a similar revolutionary >>>>>>> effect on "B-to-B" transactions - - automating >>>>>>> system-to-system exchanges - - and this domain may eventually >>>>>>> be several times larger in scale that the "B-to-C" space. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The characteristics of the Internet environment to which the >>>>>>> SOA concept responds are: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. Multiple management domains.--Business or other entities >>>>>>> "on the 'Net" each have their own set of policies and >>>>>>> procedures, and they are legal peers so there is little or no >>>>>>> "top down governance" in the environment; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2. Heterogeneous technologies, semantics and processes; >>>>>>> 3. A very large and dynamic "marketplace" of potential >>>>>>> service >>>>>>> providers and consumers.--Unlike the environment within a >>>>>>> single organization, there may be many alternative providers >>>>>>> of a computing service, and available services may change >>>>>>> on a >>>>>>> minute-by-minute basis; >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 4. Lack of standard context.--Within a single organization, >>>>>>> there is normally a body of "well-known" information about >>>>>>> what resources are available, how they may be obtained, what >>>>>>> standards or conventions they follow, specific interface >>>>>>> details, reliability of the resource, payment >>>>>>> requirements, if >>>>>>> any, etc. In the environment of a single computer, the >>>>>>> unknowns are even fewer. Because of the size and diversity of >>>>>>> the Internet, obtaining this information is a much larger >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> problem. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> 5. Lack of infrastructure services.--The Internet provides >>>>>>> some basic services, but on a "best-efforts" basis. Thus >>>>>>> issues like quality-of service and security require must be >>>>>>> addressed more explicitly than in single-computer or >>>>>>> local-network environments. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Application architectures that call themselves "SOA" >>>>>>> provide a >>>>>>> solution to these issues of the Internet environment. >>>>>>> There is >>>>>>> nothing to prevent implemen! ting an SOA within a local >>>>>>> network, on a single computing platform, or even in a >>>>>>> non-technical environment like a human household, but the >>>>>>> need >>>>>>> for SOA is driven by the opportunity for exploiting the >>>>>>> worldwide connectivity provided by the Internet." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com] >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 12:05 PM >>>>>>> To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] When Is An SOA Really An SOA? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This seem to be an issue for defining "Reference Model". Does >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> reference model provide a litmus test for architectures to >>>>>>> determine >>>>>>> whether or not they follow SOA? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 5/5/05, Chiusano Joseph wrote: >>>>>>> > This question has been on my mind for quite some time, >>>>>>> and I >>>>>>> would like now >>>>>>> > to put it in the context of our in-process RM. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > In the past, I have pondered the following more specific >>>>>>> question (please ! >>>>>>> > note that this is all scoped to Web Services-based SOA for >>>>>>> ease of >>>>>>> > explanation): >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > If I have 2 Web Services that communicate, do I have an >>>>>>> SOA? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > We can say "certainly not!". One can do point-to-point >>>>>>> integration with Web >>>>>>> > Services just as easily (to a certain degree) as without, >>>>>>> with redundant Web >>>>>>> > Services rather than shared Web Services (a violation of >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> of the >>>>>>> > foundational tenets of SOA, which is shared services). >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Now let's say that we have 2 Web Services that each conform >>>>>>> to the SOA >>>>>>> > Architectural Model in Figure 1 of our most recent draft. >>>>>>> There is a data >>>>>>> > model, a policy, a contract, etc. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Add to that our definition of SOA on line 470, in which we >>>>>>> (correctly) state >>>>>>> > that SOA is a form of Enterprise Architecture, which (at >>>>>>> least in my mind) >>>>>>> > implies enterprise-level benefits. >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Q: Given the last scenario above (2 Web Se! rvices that >>>>>>> each >>>>>>> conform to the >>>>>>> > SOA Architectural Model ) and our definition of SOA: Is >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> scenario >>>>>>> > large-scale enough that it *really* meets our definition? >>>>>>> IOW, how >>>>>>> > large-scale does an "instance" that conforms to our RM have >>>>>>> to be to yield >>>>>>> > benefits on an enterprise scale? Do we need to stipulate >>>>>>> something regarding >>>>>>> > this for our RM? >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Joe >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Joseph Chiusano >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> *********** >>>>>> Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. - >>>>>> http://www.adobe.com Chair - OASIS Service Oriented Architecture >>>>>> Reference Model Technical Committee - >>>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm >>>>>> Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/ >>>>>> Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources - >>>>>> http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html >>>>>> *********** >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> *********** >>>>> Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. - >>>>> http://www.adobe.com >>>>> Chair - OASIS Service Oriented Architecture Reference Model Technical >>>>> Committee - >>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm >>>>> Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/ >>>>> Adobe >>>>> Enterprise Developer Resources - >>>>> http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html >>>>> *********** >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> / Ken >>>> Laskey >>>> \ >>>> | MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 | >>>> | 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 | >>>> \ McLean VA >>>> 22102-7508 / >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *** note: phone number changed 4/15/2005 to 703-983-7934 *** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> *********** >>> Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. - >>> http://www.adobe.com >>> Chair - OASIS Service Oriented Architecture Reference Model >>> Technical Committee - >>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm >>> Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/ >>> Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources - >>> http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html >>> *********** >>> >>> >>> >> >> >
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