RE: [soa-rm] Definition of business

I'm in the same boat. I don't want our work getting painted with the
B2B brush
John Harby wrote:

>My concern comes from spending a good deal of time in the biotech
>space where "business" would turn off those who consider their
>applications "scientific".
>
>On 5/11/05, Matthew MacKenzie <mattm@adobe.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I cannot imagine a legitimate reason to define or use the word
>>"business" in our specification.
>>
>>-matt
>>Duane Nickull wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>John:
>>>
>>>Thank you - that is more elegantly stated that the way I wrote that
>>>question.
>>>
>>>Anyone care to post an opinion?
>>>
>>>Duane
>>>
>>>John Harby wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>What value does it add to use 'business' as opposed to some more
>>>>generic term?
>>>>
>>>>On 5/11/05, Duane Nickull <dnickull@adobe.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ken:
>>>>>
>>>>>I still think this may weight in as too specific and constrictive. The
>>>>>gist seems to be the "the activities undertaken to accomplish goals",
>>>>>regardless of the the type of entity owning or operating the IT.
>>>>>
>>>>>For sake of clarity, can we not use the term "business"? Or does
>>>>>anyone
>>>>>believe we absolutely need to use that word.
>>>>>
>>>>>Duane
>>>>>
>>>>>Ken Laskey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>But do we also need to cover
>>>>>>
>>>>>>business: the goals expressed by an organization and the activities
>>>>>>undertaken to accomplish those goals
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ken
>>>>>>
>>>>>>At 08:31 AM 5/11/2005, Peter F Brown wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Duane:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I take Martin's point but there is a difference between the
>>>>>>>"business" as an
>>>>>>>organisational entity; and "business" as the work/mission that the
>>>>>>>entity
>>>>>>>undertakes. I would prefer "enterprise" or "organisation", but could
>>>>>>>livewith "business" provided there is a clear definition in the
>>>>>>>glossary as
>>>>>>>you suggest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If "business" it is to be, then I'd propose for the glossary:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Business: any organisation, enterprise or undertaking, whether
>>>>>>>for-profit,
>>>>>>>voluntary or governmental in nature, with a particular mission and
>>>>>>>structure"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Peter
>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com]
>>>>>>>Sent: 11 May 2005 04:24
>>>>>>>Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Why do we need SOA? (proposal for Introduction
>>>>>>>text)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Martin:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes - I know in our current context it is implicitly understood
>>>>>>>however I do
>>>>>>>want to keep our focus a bit strict about this to ensure that when
>>>>>>>someone
>>>>>>>picks up this RM 5 years from now it is still pretty clear. If there
>>>>>>>is a
>>>>>>>term that is not necessary to use that may cast ambiguity, we should
>>>>>>>probably error on the side of safety.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If this becomes as popular as the OSI stack, we have to strive to
>>>>>>>make sure
>>>>>>>that 10 years from now people don't discard it because it only
>>>>>>>applies to
>>>>>>>business.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Perhaps we should define it in the glossary if we did keep it in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Duane
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Smith, Martin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Duane - - I wouldn't lose sleep over the term "business." We (in
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Government) use it all the time as synonymous with "mission". We
>>>>>>>talk about
>>>>>>>"business case", "business value", "business impact", "business
>>>>>>>owner" and
>>>>>>>"business process." It often is used to contrast with "non-business"
>>>>>>>functions or considerations like "support" or "infrastructure" or
>>>>>>>"administrative" or "compliance".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Martin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com]
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tue 5/10/2005 12:05 PM
>>>>>>>>Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Why do we need SOA? (proposal for Introduction
>>>>>>>>text)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I would object to any statement or notion that made SOA only SOA
>>>>>>>>in the
>>>>>>>>context of 'business', however I think I understand the intent of
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>statement and agree. Business is one type of user. Department of
>>>>>>>>Homeland Security is not a business yet they ill have SOA (at least
>>>>>>>>Martin hasn't tried to sell me anything yet ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Perhaps we could re-state it as an IT need, written in a way that
>>>>>>>>speaks to business and government users. This is harder than it
>>>>>>>>appears and I failed at it miserably but would love to hear your
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>guys take.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Something like (but not) this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"SOA is an architectural model developed to enable those who
>>>>>>>>build and
>>>>>>>>maintain IT systems to repurpose components rapidly for new
>>>>>>>>functionality. This enables them to respond quickly and in an
>>>>>>>>economically efficient manner to new requirements"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Does that make sense?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Duane
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Sally,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I like your comment regarding SOA being a response for business,
>>>>>>>>>and I
>>>>>>>>>believe it is completely true. A general question for us: Since
>>>>>>>>>we are
>>>>>>>>>approaching SOA from the technical perspective (at least that is my
>>>>>>>>>understanding), wouldn't it be out of our scope to refer to the
>>>>>>>>>business aspects of SOA (i.e. that SOA encapsulates business
>>>>>>>>>services
>>>>>>>>>in....etc. etc.)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>>>>>Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>>>>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>>>><http://www.boozallen.com/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> From: Sally St. Amand [mailto:sallystamand@yahoo.com]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 9:17 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Smith, Martin; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Why do we need SOA? (proposal for
>>>>>>>>> Introduction text)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>> I like your thoughts and agree that SOA is a response to the
>>>>>>>>> characteristics of the internet that you list. I also think
>>>>>>>>>SOA is
>>>>>>>>> a response for business.
>>>>>>>>> We need to answer your question, otherwise SOA will be ( or is
>>>>>>>>> already ) viewed as a marketing ploy
>>>>>>>>> See additional thoughts below.
>>>>>>>>> Sally
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Smith, Martin" <Martin.Smith@DHS.GOV> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      List - -
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      I sent essentially this same message in the thread "[soa-rm]
>>>>>>>>>      When Is An SOA Really An SOA?" a while back, but got no
>>>>>>>>>      response. Thought I'd try again to see if no-one noticed
>>>>>>>>>it or
>>>>>>>>>      no-one liked it . . .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      I'm proposing we include something like the following in the
>>>>>>>>>      Introduction. As several people have observed, we all tended
>>>>>>>>>      to jump right in to the details of "what is an SOA" without
>>>>>>>>>      nailing down the answer to the "why should I [the reader]
>>>>>>>>>      care?" question. As we learned in the f2f discussion, many of
>>>>>>>>>      us on the TC care because it's our job to explain to others
>>>>>>>>>      why we all seem to think we need this 'SOA' thing (other than
>>>>>>>>>      that it keeps being in the news!) I'm guessing that if we can
>>>>>>>>>      understand why SOA has become a buzzword, we'll clarify the
>>>>>>>>>      "essential definition" question.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      So, here's what I think is driving SOA:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      "The SOA concept has emerged in response to the need for an
>>>>>>>>>      approach to application architecture that is well adapted to
>>>>>>>>>      the I! nternet environment.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      SOA is a strategy that organizes an enterprises functionality
>>>>>>>>>      as services that can be aggregated and/or reused in order to
>>>>>>>>>      achieve business goal(s). To take advantage of services over
>>>>>>>>>      the internet there has to be the ability to understand,
>>>>>>>>>      discover, combine and use the services that reside within the
>>>>>>>>>      enterprise or anywhere on the internet.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      The Internet has revolutionized personal communications with
>>>>>>>>>      e-mail, and "B-to-C" transactions with the World-Wide Web.
>>>>>>>>>      Following the exploitation path of other technologies, the
>>>>>>>>>      Internet may be expected to have a similar revolutionary
>>>>>>>>>      effect on "B-to-B" transactions - - automating
>>>>>>>>>      system-to-system exchanges - - and this domain may eventually
>>>>>>>>>      be several times larger in scale that the "B-to-C" space.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      The characteristics of the Internet environment to which the
>>>>>>>>>      SOA concept responds are:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      1. Multiple management domains.--Business or other entities
>>>>>>>>>      "on the 'Net" each have their own set of policies and
>>>>>>>>>      procedures, and they are legal peers so there is little or no
>>>>>>>>>      "top down governance" in the environment;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      2. Heterogeneous technologies, semantics and processes;
>>>>>>>>>      3. A very large and dynamic "marketplace" of potential
>>>>>>>>>service
>>>>>>>>>      providers and consumers.--Unlike the environment within a
>>>>>>>>>      single organization, there may be many alternative providers
>>>>>>>>>      of a computing service, and available services may change
>>>>>>>>>on a
>>>>>>>>>      minute-by-minute basis;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      4. Lack of standard context.--Within a single organization,
>>>>>>>>>      there is normally a body of "well-known" information about
>>>>>>>>>      what resources are available, how they may be obtained, what
>>>>>>>>>      standards or conventions they follow, specific interface
>>>>>>>>>      details, reliability of the resource, payment
>>>>>>>>>requirements, if
>>>>>>>>>      any, etc. In the environment of a single computer, the
>>>>>>>>>      unknowns are even fewer. Because of the size and diversity of
>>>>>>>>>      the Internet, obtaining this information is a much larger
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      5. Lack of infrastructure services.--The Internet provides
>>>>>>>>>      some basic services, but on a "best-efforts" basis. Thus
>>>>>>>>>      issues like quality-of service and security require must be
>>>>>>>>>      addressed more explicitly than in single-computer or
>>>>>>>>>      local-network environments.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      Application architectures that call themselves "SOA"
>>>>>>>>>provide a
>>>>>>>>>      solution to these issues of the Internet environment.
>>>>>>>>>There is
>>>>>>>>>      nothing to prevent implemen! ting an SOA within a local
>>>>>>>>>      network, on a single computing platform, or even in a
>>>>>>>>>      non-technical environment like a human household, but the
>>>>>>>>>need
>>>>>>>>>      for SOA is driven by the opportunity for exploiting the
>>>>>>>>>      worldwide connectivity provided by the Internet."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      Martin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>      From: John Harby [mailto:jharby@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>      Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 12:05 PM
>>>>>>>>>      To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>>>>>      Subject: Re: [soa-rm] When Is An SOA Really An SOA?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      This seem to be an issue for defining "Reference Model". Does
>>>>>>>>>      this
>>>>>>>>>      reference model provide a litmus test for architectures to
>>>>>>>>>      determine
>>>>>>>>>      whether or not they follow SOA?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      On 5/5/05, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>>>>>>>>>      > This question has been on my mind for quite some time,
>>>>>>>>>and I
>>>>>>>>>      would like now
>>>>>>>>>      > to put it in the context of our in-process RM.
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > In the past, I have pondered the following more specific
>>>>>>>>>      question (please !
>>>>>>>>>      > note that this is all scoped to Web Services-based SOA for
>>>>>>>>>      ease of
>>>>>>>>>      > explanation):
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > If I have 2 Web Services that communicate, do I have an
>>>>>>>>>SOA?
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > We can say "certainly not!". One can do point-to-point
>>>>>>>>>      integration with Web
>>>>>>>>>      > Services just as easily (to a certain degree) as without,
>>>>>>>>>      with redundant Web
>>>>>>>>>      > Services rather than shared Web Services (a violation of
>>>>>>>>>one
>>>>>>>>>      of the
>>>>>>>>>      > foundational tenets of SOA, which is shared services).
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > Now let's say that we have 2 Web Services that each conform
>>>>>>>>>      to the SOA
>>>>>>>>>      > Architectural Model in Figure 1 of our most recent draft.
>>>>>>>>>      There is a data
>>>>>>>>>      > model, a policy, a contract, etc.
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > Add to that our definition of SOA on line 470, in which we
>>>>>>>>>      (correctly) state
>>>>>>>>>      > that SOA is a form of Enterprise Architecture, which (at
>>>>>>>>>      least in my mind)
>>>>>>>>>      > implies enterprise-level benefits.
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > Q: Given the last scenario above (2 Web Se! rvices that
>>>>>>>>>each
>>>>>>>>>      conform to the
>>>>>>>>>      > SOA Architectural Model ) and our definition of SOA: Is
>>>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>>      scenario
>>>>>>>>>      > large-scale enough that it *really* meets our definition?
>>>>>>>>>      IOW, how
>>>>>>>>>      > large-scale does an "instance" that conforms to our RM have
>>>>>>>>>      to be to yield
>>>>>>>>>      > benefits on an enterprise scale? Do we need to stipulate
>>>>>>>>>      something regarding
>>>>>>>>>      > this for our RM?
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > Joe
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      > Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>      >
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>***********
>>>>>>>>Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. -
>>>>>>>>http://www.adobe.com Chair - OASIS Service Oriented Architecture
>>>>>>>>Reference Model Technical Committee -
>>>>>>>>http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm
>>>>>>>>Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>>>>>>>>Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources -
>>>>>>>>http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>>>>>>>>***********
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>***********
>>>>>>>Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. -
>>>>>>>http://www.adobe.com
>>>>>>>Chair - OASIS Service Oriented Architecture Reference Model Technical
>>>>>>>Committee -
>>>>>>>http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm
>>>>>>>Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>>>>>>>Adobe
>>>>>>>Enterprise Developer Resources -
>>>>>>>http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>>>>>>>***********
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /   Ken
>>>>>>Laskey
>>>>>>\
>>>>>>|    MITRE Corporation, M/S H305    phone: 703-983-7934   |
>>>>>>|    7515 Colshire Drive                    fax:      703-983-1379   |
>>>>>> \   McLean VA
>>>>>>22102-7508                                              /
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>*** note: phone number changed 4/15/2005 to 703-983-7934 ***
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>***********
>>>>>Senior Standards Strategist - Adobe Systems, Inc. -
>>>>>http://www.adobe.com
>>>>>Chair - OASIS Service Oriented Architecture Reference Model
>>>>>Technical Committee -
>>>>>http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=soa-rm
>>>>>Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Bureau Plenary - http://www.unece.org/cefact/
>>>>>Adobe Enterprise Developer Resources -
>>>>>http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/developer/main.html
>>>>>***********
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>

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