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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] [issue:structure] draft 07, sect 2, line 201, Figure2-1


You mean because of the arrows?  Would it help if we removed
the arrow heads?

-- Greg

Chiusano Joseph wrote:
> Will some readers perceive this as looking very much like a process
> diagram (forget the labels for a second), and hence our message may be
> lost?
> 
> Joe
> 
> Joseph Chiusano
> Booz Allen Hamilton
> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>  
> 
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Gregory A. Kohring [mailto:kohring@ccrl-nece.de] 
>>Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 3:24 AM
>>To: Francis McCabe
>>Cc: SOA-RM; dnickull@adobe.com; mattm@adobe.com
>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] [issue:structure] draft 07, sect 2, 
>>line 201, Figure 2-1
>>
>>Frank,
>>
>>If I understand you correctly, then in your view there is 
>>little to be gained by distinguishing between syntaxt and 
>>semantics at this level.  Hence, the "Service Description" is 
>>purely semantics.
>>
>>Attached is another diagram which depicts this idea. Is this 
>>consistent with your ideas?
>>
>>-- Greg
>>
>>Francis McCabe wrote:
>>
>>>While I like the direction in which this is going, I have a 
>>
>>couple of
>>
>>>issues:
>>>
>>>1. I do not see semantics as being inside service description. 
>>>Semantics is an abstract concept that may be referred to but is not 
>>>contained in any description.
>>>2. I am not sure why data model is broken out in the way 
>>
>>suggested.  
>>
>>>To me, tehe data model is an asepct of the semantics of the service.
>>>3. I do not see a hard and fast distinction between syntax and 
>>>semantics. Again, any syntactic constraints are simply part of the 
>>>overall semantics.
>>>
>>>The *reason* for this is that while it is tempting to equate  
>>>semantics with application semantics, that is not, in fact, a good  
>>>slope to slip down.
>>>
>>>Once you liberate yourself from that misconception, one 
>>
>>beings to see 
>>
>>>all kinds of possibilities. For example, for an 
>>
>>encryption/decryption 
>>
>>>service, its entire semantic model consists of messages with  
>>>encryption markers etc. etc. Is that syntax? Depends on 
>>
>>your point of  
>>
>>>view; to my mind it is semantics of a simple service.
>>>
>>>
>>>Frank
>>>
>>>
>>>On May 13, 2005, at 12:01 AM, Gregory A. Kohring wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Yes, this looks much better. Attached is a slight variation which 
>>>>moves the semantics into the description. At one time, 
>>
>>"syntax" was 
>>
>>>>also explicitly mentioned as being part of the 
>>
>>description. Has that 
>>
>>>>been dropped?
>>>>
>>>>-- Greg
>>>>
>>>>Duane Nickull wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Does something like this make more sense than a stack 
>>
>>diagram.   This is
>>
>>>>>uses a multi-layered approach to group things and reduce 
>>
>>the  number 
>>
>>>>>of lines.
>>>>>
>>>>>Duane
>>>>>
>>>>>Duane Nickull wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The issue we had with the concept map is we ended up with a 
>>>>>>proliferation of arrows for items like "semantics" and 
>>
>>security  since
>>
>>>>>>they are omni-present.   We tried various other 
>>
>>depictions and  finally
>>
>>>>>>came to the stack.  I agree that the stack alone is not  
>>
>>sufficient 
>>
>>>>>>and also lends itself to ambiguity so we agreed to place 
>>
>>some text by  it.
>>
>>>>>>There are standard conventions for interpreting stack diagrams.  
>>>>>>For example - layers in the stack are only able to talk 
>>
>>to adjacent 
>>
>>>>>>layers.  Layer n can interact with n-1 and n+1, but not n+2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The position of the vertical layers indicate they are 
>>
>>relevant to  
>>
>>>>>>each horizontal layer they are adjacent to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In stack diagrams, there is no named associations 
>>
>>present so it is 
>>
>>>>>>ambiguous.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Accordingly, one can infer the following from the diagram in 2.1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Service descriptions (are associated with) services 
>>
>>Policies (are 
>>
>>>>>>associated with) service descriptions Contracts (are associated 
>>>>>>with) policies data models (are associated with) contracts 
>>>>>>semantics (are associated with) service descriptions, policies, 
>>>>>>contracts and data models.
>>>>>>Services, Service descriptions, policies, contracts and 
>>
>>data models 
>>
>>>>>>may all be discoverable and their presence and 
>>
>>availability known.
>>
>>>>>>What I do not like is that it also separates the data model from 
>>>>>>the service description and separates the contract from 
>>
>>the service 
>>
>>>>>>description.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It may be better to go with a layered concept map.
>>>>>>Duane
>>>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>======================================================================
>>G.A. Kohring
>>C&C Research Laboratories, NEC Europe Ltd.
>>======================================================================
>>
> 
> 


-- 
======================================================================
G.A. Kohring
C&C Research Laboratories, NEC Europe Ltd.
======================================================================


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