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Subject: RE: Consumer mechanism for "advertising" for a service


To further muddy the waters, at what point does an application become a service consumer?

1. At discovery time	 (low potential service consumer)
2. At bind time		 (high potential service consumer)
3. At invocation time?	(actual service consumer)


 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Peter F Brown [mailto:peter@justbrown.net] 
Sent:	June 10, 2005 10:30 AM
To:	'Rex Brooks'; McGregor, Wesley; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject:	Consumer mechanism for "advertising" for a service

Although I hope we will shortly put to bed the issue regarding "service
consumer, in or out of the RM", I was intrigued by your comment and
Take a look at: www.XMLbyStealth.net/uid/0059 on my web site. This is a
visual that goes with an outline project we are looking to start up in the
European Union eGov space. Does this go some way at least to answering your
question? This sort of architecture is, for me, the "flip side" of "service
provider"-centric architectures...



-----Original Message-----
From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] 
Sent: 25 May 2005 19:39
To: McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm][issue:structure] draft 07, sect 2, line 201, Figure

Not to cause too much more roiling, but it just occurred to me that, as a
potential consumer who does not find a specific service ready to be
consumed, might we not also want to allow consumers a mechanism in our RM by
which they can advertise for a service? If so, what do we call that? Where
in the model does it belong? It is much like a service request for which
there is not at a given point in time, an available service.


At 10:13 AM -0400 5/25/05, <McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca> wrote:
>I am in agreement with this.
>This implies then that there is no real dependency on Service from 
>Service Description other than to allow a possible link to the service 
>(a placeholder if you will)
>  -----Original Message-----
>From:	Christopher Bashioum [mailto:cbashioum@mitre.org]
>Sent:	May 25, 2005 9:05 AM
>To:	soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject:	RE: [soa-rm] David Linthicum Says: "ESB versus Fabric.Stop
>  I would think that one would want to be able to describe a service 
>independent of whether or not it is consumable at a given point in time 
>to enable the concurrent development of services.  In which case you 
>would want the service description to indicate whether or not the 
>service was available for consumption (and if not, then maybe the target
date for availability).
>-----Original Message-----
>From: McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca 
>Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 3:14 PM
>Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] David Linthicum Says: "ESB versus Fabric.Stop It!"
>I agree with you. There is no point describing a service if a link to 
>its endpoint cannot be found.
>Does this then imply that we have a "must-have" relationship which is 
>far stricter than just a dependency?
>Finally, why describe a service if it cannot be consumed, for future 
>reservations maybe similar to XML namespaces?
>Comments anyone...
>  -----Original Message-----
>From:	Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com]
>Sent:	May 24, 2005 2:56 PM
>To:	Michael Stiefel
>Cc:	soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject:	Re: [soa-rm] David Linthicum Says: "ESB versus Fabric.Stop
>Endpoints are part of a service description IMO.  Orchestration of 
>multiple services is out of the scope of  the core RM, much the same 
>way as how multiple houses are positioned next to each other in a grid 
>layout is un-necessary in order to define a RM for house.
>A service or house do not have to exist amongst multiple houses in 
>order to be services/houses.
>Michael Stiefel wrote:
>>  Could we then conceive of endpoints and orchestration in such a  
>> fashion? Or is the critical point aspect or attribute in which case  
>> endpoint qualifies, but orchestration does not.
>>  To make a grammatical analogy, the RM defines a substantive, and  
>> therefore adjectives (aspects and attributes) are part of the RM, but  
>> verbs (actions) are not.
>>  (side note: I know verbs have aspect, but we are not using the term  
>> that way).
>>  Michael
>>  At 02:34 PM 5/24/2005, Duane Nickull wrote:
>>>  Since Structural Integrity is an aspect of all houses, it could be  
>>> part of a RM as an abstract concept.  Even if you do not explicitly  
>>> design a house to have a certain set of structural integrity  
>>> parameters, it still does.  It is not a component itself, just an  
>>> aspect or attribute.
>>>  Duane
>>>  Michael Stiefel wrote:
>>>>  I thought of structural integrity in terms of the entire house, 
>>>> not  just a wall, but I think your point remains the same.
>>>>  Granted that each architecture needs to specify its structural  
>>>> integrity, but shouldn't the RM have the concept of structural  
>>>> integrity since it is an abstract concept shared by all RAs.
>>>>  Michael
>>>>  At 02:06 PM 5/24/2005, Duane Nickull wrote:
>>>>>  The RM does not necessarily have to get into cardinality rules 
>>>>> IMO,
>  >>>> unless they are very obvious.  In the case of a house, you may 
> not  >>>> make consistent rules stating that every house has to have 
> at least
>>>>>  three walls since a wall can be curved or any number of walls 
>>>>> from
>>>>>  3 up.  You may be able to infer from the relationships that there  
>>>>> is a certain cardinality if the RM for a house said that each room  
>>>>> has one door.
>>>>>  That would declare an association between the number of rooms to  
>>>>> the number of doors.
>>>>>  Structural integrity is an aspect of a wall, which must be  
>>>>> specialized for each architecture based on a number criteria.  The  
>>>>> RM declares what the wall is and its' purpose, the architect has  
>>>>> the job of specifying the actual walls to be used for each  
>>>>> architecture and ensuring they map back to requirements.
>>>>>  You are right - analogies are not definitions, however I have 
>>>>> found  them very useful in conveying the meaning.
>>>>>  Duane
>>>>>  Michael Stiefel wrote:
>>>>>>  Does the RM understand that some of the concepts are unique and  
>>>>>> some multiple (without an exact number, you could have one  
>>>>>> circular wall, 3 walls, 4 walls, etc.)?
>>>>>>  Using your analogy, how does the RM deal with concepts such as  
>>>>>> structural integrity. Structural integrity would apply to all  
>>>>>> house RAs. In my way of thinking concepts such as endpoints or  
>>>>>> orchestration are analogous to this.
>>>>>>  In the analogy I would see the reference architecture as 
>>>>>> Colonial  American Reference Architecture, or even more 
>>>>>> specifically  Colonial American Cape Ann, or Colonial American 
>>>>>> Greek Revival  reference architectures.
>>>>>>  Analogies are useful, but they are not definitions.
>>>>>>  Michael
>>>>>>  At 12:56 PM 5/24/2005, Duane Nickull wrote:
>>>>>>>  RA means Reference Architecture.  As per the previous emails on  
>>>>>>> this subject, it is a generalized architecture.
>>>>>>>  The relationship is that architects use a RM as a guiding model  
>>>>>>> when building a RA.
>>>>>>>  For example, if you are architecting a house, an RM may explain  
>>>>>>> the concepts of gravity, a 3D environment, walls, foundations,  
>>>>>>> floors, roofs, ceilings etc.  It is abstract however.  There is  
>>>>>>> nothing specific like a wall with measurements such as 8 feet  
>>>>>>> high.  Note that the RM has only one each of these things - it  
>>>>>>> does not have 4, 16, 23 walls, just one as a concept.
>>>>>>>  The architect may uses this model to create a specific  
>>>>>>> architecture for a specific house (accounting for such things as  
>>>>>>> property, incline, climate etc) or an architect MAY elect to use  
>>>>>>> it to build a more generalized reference architecture.  The  
>>>>>>> latter is often done by architects who design houses.  When they  
>>>>>>> sell a house, they must often re-architect the RA for specific  
>>>>>>> implementation details such as incline of land, climate, facing  
>>>>>>> the sun etc..
>>>>>>>  So why do we need a RM?  Simple - we now have logical divisions  
>>>>>>> amongst the components of a house and what they mean.  That way,  
>>>>>>> when a company says " we are a flooring company..", that is  
>>>>>>> meaningful since we all know what that means.  The same applies  
>>>>>>> to a roofing company.  Without the basic consensus on the 
>>>>>>> logical  divisions, a roofing contractor may also try to include 
>>>>>>> the  ceiling and walls as part of his offerings.
>>>>>>>  That would not work and not allow the general contractor to 
>>>>>>> build  a house very easily since there may not be consensus upon 
>>>>>>> the  division of labor and components to build the house.
>>>>>>>  Do you guys think an explanation of this nature may be good to  
>>>>>>> include in the introduction section?
>>>>>>>  Duane
>>>>>>>  Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>>>>>>>>  What is an RA? What is the relationship between an RM and an RA?
>>>>>>>>  What is
>>>>>>>>  the RM->RA path for SOA?
>>>>>>>>  Matt also submitted last week (I believe) that we may not even  
>>>>>>>> need an
>  >>>>>>> RA. How should that change our notion of RM, if at all?
>>>>>>>>  Joe
>>>>>>>>  Joseph Chiusano
>  >>>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>>>>>  Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com

Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-849-2309

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