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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with Ontologies
Ken Laskey wroe: NO NO NO NO NO NO ... With such vehemence, I take that as a yes... Jokes apart, I proposed to the OASIS Board some...two years ago...that there ought to be some semantic mapping between the concepts defined in different OASIS specs, partly to identify redundancy and partly to underline precisely this...I think Robin Cover and/or Isogen started some work on this (using Topic Maps I think), but I don't know how far it got and whether there any lessons to be learnt from the project Peter ------------- Peter F Brown --- Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group --- Senior Expert eGovernment - Legal, Organisational and International Issues Austrian Federal Chancellery --- Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model --- -----Original Message----- From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org] Sent: 12 October 2005 18:58 To: Rex Brooks; Frank McCabe Cc: Duane Nickull; Matt MacKenzie; chiusano_joseph@bah.com; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; danny_thornton2@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with Ontologies NO NO NO NO NO NO ... At 12:01 PM 10/12/2005, Rex Brooks wrote: >That's an EXCELLENT idea! > >Rex > >At 8:13 AM -0700 10/12/05, Frank McCabe wrote: >>Hey, why not have a semantic mapping TC :-) >> >>On Oct 11, 2005, at 7:57 PM, Ken Laskey wrote: >> >>>One thing I have advocated in work outside SOA-RM (yes, Virginia, >>>there is another life) is the need to understand what are the >>>concepts that go into a mapping, what are the properties of a >>>mapping, and (dare I say) what does an ontology that represents >>>mapping look like. That very much gets into how one could possibly >>>do effective mediation. But that is a whole separate topic. >>> >>>Ken >>> >>>P.S. No, I do not propose we create a Semantic Mapping TC. >>> >>> >>>On Oct 11, 2005, at 7:36 PM, Duane Nickull wrote: >>> >>>>This was the base theorem for the Core Components Technical >>>>Specification (CCTS) which mandates a set of contexts as a qualifier >>>>for every semantic entity. Even the simplest of data elements >>>>(FirstNameOfPerson) has different semantics if it appears in a PO as >>>>//BuyerParty/Contact/FirstNameOfPerson vs. >>>>//SellerParty/Contact/FirstNameOfPerson. Makes it hard to create >>>>one size fits all mapping rules. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>This is also why I drew the sinkhole with us staring down at >>>>semantics ;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Duane >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org] >>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:03 PM >>>>To: Matt MacKenzie >>>>Cc: chiusano_joseph@bah.com; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; >>>>danny_thornton2@yahoo.com >>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with >>>>Ontologies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Mappings cannot always be complete because, as Frank notes, an >>>>ontology exists for a purpose (or variations of a similar >>>>purpose) and does not express all possible knowledge on a subject. >>>>This does not mean there isn't value in a partial mapping or >>>>mappings among a collection of ontologies. Ideally, if there was >>>>information missing to which one needed to map, this information and >>>>corresponding mappings could be formally captured and expand the >>>>knowledge base for future uses. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Ken >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:24 PM, Matt MacKenzie wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I have adapted a proprietary access control language to xacml, and >>>>merely mapping concepts was not enough. It was useful, but didn't >>>>fill in all the blanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-matt >>>> >>>>-- >>>> >>>>Matt MacKenzie >>>> >>>>Development Manager, LiveCycle Registry >>>> >>>>Adobe Systems Incorporated >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>> >>>>From: Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> >>>> >>>>To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>; Danny >>>>Thornton <danny_thornton2@yahoo.com> >>>> >>>>Sent: Tue Oct 11 13:10:51 2005 >>>> >>>>Subject: RE: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with >>>>Ontologies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>><Quote> >>>> >>>>For example, if I have a service that uses XACML policy and another >>>> >>>>service that uses EPAL policy, I could resolve the differences >>>>between >>>> >>>>the two policy languages using an ontology for both policy languages >>>>at >>>> >>>>the policy decision point. >>>> >>>></Quote> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I believe this has already been stated on some form or another by >>>>others >>>> >>>>who have replied, but this looks to me like the job for a "security >>>> >>>>policy reference model" (or similar name) that contains those >>>>(minimal) >>>> >>>>concepts that are most central to the domain, rather than an >>>>ontology. I >>>> >>>>see an ontology as a semantic model that may be derived using the >>>> >>>>reference model, along with multiple other representations such as >>>> >>>>concrete security architectures, UML class diagrams, E-R diagrams, etc. >>>> >>>>One single reference model begets all of these and more. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Joe (living in reference model world these days) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Joseph Chiusano >>>> >>>>Booz Allen Hamilton >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>700 13th St. NW >>>> >>>>Washington, DC 20005 >>>> >>>>O: 202-508-6514 <= new office number as of 09/19/05 >>>> >>>>C: 202-251-0731 >>>> >>>>Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>> >>>>From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com] >>>> >>>>Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:50 AM >>>> >>>>To: Danny Thornton >>>> >>>>Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> >>>>Subject: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with >>>> >>>>Ontologies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Post from Danny Thornton: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>(he mentions the "O" and "S" words) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>;-) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>> >>>>From: Danny Thornton [mailto:danny_thornton2@yahoo.com] >>>> >>>>Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:26 PM >>>> >>>>To: Duane Nickull >>>> >>>>Subject: Resolving Various Policy Languages with Ontologies >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Hi Duane, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>The following is an e-mail dicussion I would like to have >>>> >>>>with soa-rm group: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>I have been reading WD-SOA-RM-09 to get an idea of the >>>> >>>>terminology/concepts for resolving various policy languages >>>> >>>>in a service oriented architecture. Section >>>> >>>>2.2.3.2 of WD-SOA-RM-09 discusses the limits of description. >>>> >>>>Section 2.3.1.2 states that an ontology can be defined to >>>> >>>>interpret strings and other tokens in the data. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>In the discussions I've had about resolving various policy >>>> >>>>languages in an SOA, I've hijacked the ontology concept and >>>> >>>>applied it as a general concept for resolving differences in >>>> >>>>policy languages. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>For example, if I have a service that uses XACML policy and >>>> >>>>another service that uses EPAL policy, I could resolve the >>>> >>>>differences between the two policy languages using an >>>> >>>>ontology for both policy languages at the policy decision point. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>For section 2.3.1.2 of the WD-SOA-RM-09, does anyone have any >>>> >>>>thoughts on expanding the concept of ontologies beyond the >>>> >>>>service description's data model? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Danny >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>__________________________________ >>>> >>>>Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>--- >>>> >>>>Ken Laskey >>>> >>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>> >>>>7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 >>>> >>>>McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>--- >>>Ken Laskey >>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 >>>McLean VA 22102-7508 > > >-- >Rex Brooks >President, CEO >Starbourne Communications Design >GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >Berkeley, CA 94702 >Tel: 510-849-2309 -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- / Ken Laskey \ | MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 | | 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 | \ McLean VA 22102-7508 / ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------
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