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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with Ontologies
Exactly. In fact, I see no way to create an execution environment unless you first define what it means to create a usable mapping. This is very analogous to creating the SOA-RM effort because how can you create instances before you understand the class. Ken On Oct 13, 2005, at 11:56 AM, <McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca> wrote: > Hi Peter, > > As you know, a framework and execution environment for semantic > mappings is quite different than the semantic mappings themselves. > > In this case the content is far more complicated than the container it > lives in, in my opinion. > > Regards, > > Wes > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter F Brown [mailto:peter@justbrown.net] > Sent: October 13, 2005 5:49 AM > To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > Cc: danny_thornton2@yahoo.com > Subject: RE: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with > Ontologies > > Ken Laskey wroe: > NO NO NO NO NO NO ... > > > With such vehemence, I take that as a yes... > > Jokes apart, I proposed to the OASIS Board some...two years ago...that > there > ought to be some semantic mapping between the concepts defined in > different > OASIS specs, partly to identify redundancy and partly to underline > precisely > this...I think Robin Cover and/or Isogen started some work on this > (using > Topic Maps I think), but I don't know how far it got and whether there > any > lessons to be learnt from the project > > Peter > > ------------- > Peter F Brown > --- > Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group > --- > Senior Expert > eGovernment - Legal, Organisational and International Issues > Austrian Federal Chancellery > --- > Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model > --- > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org] > Sent: 12 October 2005 18:58 > To: Rex Brooks; Frank McCabe > Cc: Duane Nickull; Matt MacKenzie; chiusano_joseph@bah.com; > soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; danny_thornton2@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with > Ontologies > > NO NO NO NO NO NO ... > > At 12:01 PM 10/12/2005, Rex Brooks wrote: >> That's an EXCELLENT idea! >> >> Rex >> >> At 8:13 AM -0700 10/12/05, Frank McCabe wrote: >>> Hey, why not have a semantic mapping TC :-) >>> >>> On Oct 11, 2005, at 7:57 PM, Ken Laskey wrote: >>> >>>> One thing I have advocated in work outside SOA-RM (yes, Virginia, >>>> there is another life) is the need to understand what are the >>>> concepts that go into a mapping, what are the properties of a >>>> mapping, and (dare I say) what does an ontology that represents >>>> mapping look like. That very much gets into how one could possibly >>>> do effective mediation. But that is a whole separate topic. >>>> >>>> Ken >>>> >>>> P.S. No, I do not propose we create a Semantic Mapping TC. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 11, 2005, at 7:36 PM, Duane Nickull wrote: >>>> >>>>> This was the base theorem for the Core Components Technical >>>>> Specification (CCTS) which mandates a set of contexts as a >>>>> qualifier >>>>> for every semantic entity. Even the simplest of data elements >>>>> (FirstNameOfPerson) has different semantics if it appears in a PO >>>>> as >>>>> //BuyerParty/Contact/FirstNameOfPerson vs. >>>>> //SellerParty/Contact/FirstNameOfPerson. Makes it hard to create >>>>> one size fits all mapping rules. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is also why I drew the sinkhole with us staring down at >>>>> semantics ;-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Duane >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:03 PM >>>>> To: Matt MacKenzie >>>>> Cc: chiusano_joseph@bah.com; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; >>>>> danny_thornton2@yahoo.com >>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with >>>>> Ontologies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mappings cannot always be complete because, as Frank notes, an >>>>> ontology exists for a purpose (or variations of a similar >>>>> purpose) and does not express all possible knowledge on a subject. >>>>> This does not mean there isn't value in a partial mapping or >>>>> mappings among a collection of ontologies. Ideally, if there was >>>>> information missing to which one needed to map, this information >>>>> and >>>>> corresponding mappings could be formally captured and expand the >>>>> knowledge base for future uses. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ken >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:24 PM, Matt MacKenzie wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have adapted a proprietary access control language to xacml, and >>>>> merely mapping concepts was not enough. It was useful, but didn't >>>>> fill in all the blanks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -matt >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Matt MacKenzie >>>>> >>>>> Development Manager, LiveCycle Registry >>>>> >>>>> Adobe Systems Incorporated >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> >>>>> >>>>> To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>; >>>>> Danny >>>>> Thornton <danny_thornton2@yahoo.com> >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tue Oct 11 13:10:51 2005 >>>>> >>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with >>>>> Ontologies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <Quote> >>>>> >>>>> For example, if I have a service that uses XACML policy and another >>>>> >>>>> service that uses EPAL policy, I could resolve the differences >>>>> between >>>>> >>>>> the two policy languages using an ontology for both policy >>>>> languages >>>>> at >>>>> >>>>> the policy decision point. >>>>> >>>>> </Quote> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I believe this has already been stated on some form or another by >>>>> others >>>>> >>>>> who have replied, but this looks to me like the job for a "security >>>>> >>>>> policy reference model" (or similar name) that contains those >>>>> (minimal) >>>>> >>>>> concepts that are most central to the domain, rather than an >>>>> ontology. I >>>>> >>>>> see an ontology as a semantic model that may be derived using the >>>>> >>>>> reference model, along with multiple other representations such as >>>>> >>>>> concrete security architectures, UML class diagrams, E-R diagrams, >>>>> etc. >>>>> >>>>> One single reference model begets all of these and more. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joe (living in reference model world these days) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Joseph Chiusano >>>>> >>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 700 13th St. NW >>>>> >>>>> Washington, DC 20005 >>>>> >>>>> O: 202-508-6514 <= new office number as of 09/19/05 >>>>> >>>>> C: 202-251-0731 >>>>> >>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com] >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:50 AM >>>>> >>>>> To: Danny Thornton >>>>> >>>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org >>>>> >>>>> Subject: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with >>>>> >>>>> Ontologies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Post from Danny Thornton: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (he mentions the "O" and "S" words) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ;-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >>>>> From: Danny Thornton [mailto:danny_thornton2@yahoo.com] >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:26 PM >>>>> >>>>> To: Duane Nickull >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Resolving Various Policy Languages with Ontologies >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Duane, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The following is an e-mail dicussion I would like to have >>>>> >>>>> with soa-rm group: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have been reading WD-SOA-RM-09 to get an idea of the >>>>> >>>>> terminology/concepts for resolving various policy languages >>>>> >>>>> in a service oriented architecture. Section >>>>> >>>>> 2.2.3.2 of WD-SOA-RM-09 discusses the limits of description. >>>>> >>>>> Section 2.3.1.2 states that an ontology can be defined to >>>>> >>>>> interpret strings and other tokens in the data. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In the discussions I've had about resolving various policy >>>>> >>>>> languages in an SOA, I've hijacked the ontology concept and >>>>> >>>>> applied it as a general concept for resolving differences in >>>>> >>>>> policy languages. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For example, if I have a service that uses XACML policy and >>>>> >>>>> another service that uses EPAL policy, I could resolve the >>>>> >>>>> differences between the two policy languages using an >>>>> >>>>> ontology for both policy languages at the policy decision point. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For section 2.3.1.2 of the WD-SOA-RM-09, does anyone have any >>>>> >>>>> thoughts on expanding the concept of ontologies beyond the >>>>> >>>>> service description's data model? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Danny >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________________________________ >>>>> >>>>> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> >>>>> Ken Laskey >>>>> >>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>>> >>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 >>>>> >>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Ken Laskey >>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 >>>> 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 >>>> McLean VA 22102-7508 >> >> >> -- >> Rex Brooks >> President, CEO >> Starbourne Communications Design >> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison >> Berkeley, CA 94702 >> Tel: 510-849-2309 > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ----- > / Ken > Laskey \ > | MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 | > | 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 > | > \ McLean VA 22102-7508 > / > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > ------ > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ Ken Laskey MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 McLean VA 22102-7508
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