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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with Ontologies


Exactly.  In fact, I see no way to create an execution environment  
unless you first define what it means to create a usable mapping.  This  
is very analogous to creating the SOA-RM effort because how can you  
create instances before you understand the class.

Ken

On Oct 13, 2005, at 11:56 AM, <McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca> wrote:

> Hi Peter,
>
> As you know, a framework and execution environment for semantic  
> mappings is quite different than the semantic mappings themselves.
>
> In this case the content is far more complicated than the container it  
> lives in, in my opinion.
>
> Regards,
>
> Wes
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: 	Peter F Brown [mailto:peter@justbrown.net]
> Sent:	October 13, 2005 5:49 AM
> To:	soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
> Cc:	danny_thornton2@yahoo.com
> Subject:	RE: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with   
> Ontologies
>
> Ken Laskey wroe:
> NO NO NO NO NO NO ...
>
>
> With such vehemence, I take that as a yes...
>
> Jokes apart, I proposed to the OASIS Board some...two years ago...that  
> there
> ought to be some semantic mapping between the concepts defined in  
> different
> OASIS specs, partly to identify redundancy and partly to underline  
> precisely
> this...I think Robin Cover and/or Isogen started some work on this  
> (using
> Topic Maps I think), but I don't know how far it got and whether there  
> any
> lessons to be learnt from the project
>
> Peter
>
> -------------
> Peter F Brown
> ---
> Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group
> ---
> Senior Expert
> eGovernment - Legal, Organisational and International Issues
> Austrian Federal Chancellery
> ---
> Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model
> ---
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
> Sent: 12 October 2005 18:58
> To: Rex Brooks; Frank McCabe
> Cc: Duane Nickull; Matt MacKenzie; chiusano_joseph@bah.com;
> soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; danny_thornton2@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with  
> Ontologies
>
> NO NO NO NO NO NO ...
>
> At 12:01 PM 10/12/2005, Rex Brooks wrote:
>> That's an EXCELLENT idea!
>>
>> Rex
>>
>> At 8:13 AM -0700 10/12/05, Frank McCabe wrote:
>>> Hey, why not have a semantic mapping TC :-)
>>>
>>> On Oct 11, 2005, at 7:57 PM, Ken Laskey wrote:
>>>
>>>> One thing I have advocated in work outside SOA-RM (yes, Virginia,
>>>> there is another life) is the need to understand what are the
>>>> concepts that go into a mapping, what are the properties of a
>>>> mapping, and (dare I say) what does an ontology that represents
>>>> mapping look like.  That very much gets into how one could possibly
>>>> do effective mediation.  But that is a whole separate topic.
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> P.S. No, I do not propose we create a Semantic Mapping TC.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 11, 2005, at 7:36 PM, Duane Nickull wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This was the base theorem for the Core Components Technical
>>>>> Specification (CCTS) which mandates a set of contexts as a  
>>>>> qualifier
>>>>> for every semantic entity.  Even the simplest of data elements
>>>>> (FirstNameOfPerson) has different semantics if it appears in a PO  
>>>>> as
>>>>> //BuyerParty/Contact/FirstNameOfPerson vs.
>>>>> //SellerParty/Contact/FirstNameOfPerson.  Makes it hard to create
>>>>> one size fits all mapping rules.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is also why I drew the sinkhole with us staring down at
>>>>> semantics ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Duane
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 12:03 PM
>>>>> To: Matt MacKenzie
>>>>> Cc: chiusano_joseph@bah.com; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org;
>>>>> danny_thornton2@yahoo.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with
>>>>> Ontologies
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mappings cannot always be complete because, as Frank notes, an
>>>>> ontology exists for a purpose (or variations of a similar
>>>>> purpose) and does not express all possible knowledge on a subject.
>>>>> This does not mean there isn't value in a partial mapping or
>>>>> mappings among a collection of ontologies.  Ideally, if there was
>>>>> information missing to which one needed to map, this information  
>>>>> and
>>>>> corresponding mappings could be formally captured and expand the
>>>>> knowledge base for future uses.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:24 PM, Matt MacKenzie wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have adapted a proprietary access control language to xacml, and
>>>>> merely mapping concepts was not enough.  It was useful, but didn't
>>>>> fill in all the blanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -matt
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt MacKenzie
>>>>>
>>>>> Development Manager, LiveCycle Registry
>>>>>
>>>>> Adobe Systems Incorporated
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Chiusano Joseph <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>;  
>>>>> Danny
>>>>> Thornton <danny_thornton2@yahoo.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Tue Oct 11 13:10:51 2005
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with
>>>>> Ontologies
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <Quote>
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, if I have a service that uses XACML policy and another
>>>>>
>>>>> service that uses EPAL policy, I could resolve the differences
>>>>> between
>>>>>
>>>>> the two policy languages using an ontology for both policy  
>>>>> languages
>>>>> at
>>>>>
>>>>> the policy decision point.
>>>>>
>>>>> </Quote>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe this has already been stated on some form or another by
>>>>> others
>>>>>
>>>>> who have replied, but this looks to me like the job for a "security
>>>>>
>>>>> policy reference model" (or similar name) that contains those
>>>>> (minimal)
>>>>>
>>>>> concepts that are most central to the domain, rather than an
>>>>> ontology. I
>>>>>
>>>>> see an ontology as a semantic model that may be derived using the
>>>>>
>>>>> reference model, along with multiple other representations such as
>>>>>
>>>>> concrete security architectures, UML class diagrams, E-R diagrams,  
>>>>> etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> One single reference model begets all of these and more.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe (living in reference model world these days)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Joseph Chiusano
>>>>>
>>>>> Booz Allen Hamilton
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 700 13th St. NW
>>>>>
>>>>> Washington, DC 20005
>>>>>
>>>>> O: 202-508-6514 <= new office number as of 09/19/05
>>>>>
>>>>> C: 202-251-0731
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com]
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 11:50 AM
>>>>>
>>>>> To: Danny Thornton
>>>>>
>>>>> Cc: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: [soa-rm] RE: Resolving Various Policy Languages with
>>>>>
>>>>> Ontologies
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Post from Danny Thornton:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (he mentions the "O" and "S" words)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>
>>>>> From: Danny Thornton [mailto:danny_thornton2@yahoo.com]
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 10:26 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> To: Duane Nickull
>>>>>
>>>>> Subject: Resolving Various Policy Languages with Ontologies
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Duane,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The following is an e-mail dicussion I would like to have
>>>>>
>>>>> with soa-rm group:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have been reading WD-SOA-RM-09 to get an idea of the
>>>>>
>>>>> terminology/concepts for resolving various policy languages
>>>>>
>>>>> in a service oriented architecture. Section
>>>>>
>>>>> 2.2.3.2 of WD-SOA-RM-09 discusses the limits of description.
>>>>>
>>>>> Section 2.3.1.2 states that an ontology can be defined to
>>>>>
>>>>> interpret strings and other tokens in the data.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In the discussions I've had about resolving various policy
>>>>>
>>>>> languages in an SOA, I've hijacked the ontology concept and
>>>>>
>>>>> applied it as a general concept for resolving differences in
>>>>>
>>>>> policy languages.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, if I have a service that uses XACML policy and
>>>>>
>>>>> another service that uses EPAL policy, I could resolve the
>>>>>
>>>>> differences between the two policy languages using an
>>>>>
>>>>> ontology for both policy languages at the policy decision point.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For section 2.3.1.2 of the WD-SOA-RM-09, does anyone have any
>>>>>
>>>>> thoughts on expanding the concept of ontologies beyond the
>>>>>
>>>>> service description's data model?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Danny
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> __________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005  
>>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>> Ken Laskey
>>>>>
>>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-983-7934
>>>>>
>>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        703-983-1379
>>>>>
>>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Ken Laskey
>>>> MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-983-7934
>>>> 7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        703-983-1379
>>>> McLean VA 22102-7508
>>
>>
>> --
>> Rex Brooks
>> President, CEO
>> Starbourne Communications Design
>> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>> Berkeley, CA 94702
>> Tel: 510-849-2309
>
> --
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> -----
> -----
>    /   Ken
> Laskey                                                                \
>   |    MITRE Corporation, M/S H305    phone:  703-983-7934   |
>   |    7515 Colshire Drive                    fax:      703-983-1379    
> |
>    \   McLean VA 22102-7508                                             
>   /
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> -----
> ------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
------------------
Ken Laskey
MITRE Corporation, M/S H305     phone:  703-983-7934
7515 Colshire Drive                        fax:        703-983-1379
McLean VA 22102-7508



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