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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?


> We are working these three items into the next generation of 
> the OASIS Technical Architecture.

I believe you meant to say "ebXML Technical Architecture"?

Joe

Joseph Chiusano
Associate
Booz Allen Hamilton
 
700 13th St. NW
Washington, DC 20005
O: 202-508-6514  
C: 202-251-0731
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Hardin [mailto:john@maphin.net] 
> Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:29 AM
> To: peter@justbrown.net
> Cc: 'Goran Zugic'; 'Hungenahally, Suresh'; 'David Webber 
> (XML)'; 'Duane Nickull'; 'Jones, Steve'; 
> McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org; 
> soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; 'ebSOA OASIS TC'; 
> semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org; 'James Bryce Clark'; 
> soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org; vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com
> Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: 
> [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?
> 
> That's what I believe the FERA-based SOA can do for us: Give 
> us a stable model that defines each of the Information 
> Models, the Semantics and the Run-Time SOA model.
> 
> We are working these three items into the next generation of 
> the OASIS Technical Architecture.
> 
> You can view these three separate papers, generously donated 
> by Goran, Vasco and George W. Brown (from Intel) at:
> 
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ebsoa/download.ph
> p/15263/SOA_CS_V0.1.doc
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ebsoa/download.ph
> p/14407/SOA_IM_V0.1.doc
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ebsoa/download.ph
> p/14406/Run-time_SOA_V0.1.doc
> 
> 
> 
> Peter F Brown wrote:
> > Sounds good in theory, but who is going to agree the 
> semantics to make 
> > all that automatable? Who/what is going to build/enable the 
> "federated 
> > trust network"? the market? governments? standards 
> organisations? To 
> > use Goran's
> > #7 and #8, do we need a methodology (=policies, business practices, 
> > industry-level agreements) to make it happen? and still 
> remain agile 
> > (avoiding the pitfalls of EDI)?
> > 
> > Coming from the government sector, we are asking ourselves: 
> do we have 
> > a role in leading the way by mandating certain standards and 
> > terminology (take for example the whole area of "e-enabling" public 
> > procurement contracts, accounting for up to 20% of GDP in some 
> > countries) for use in developing SOA-based services? Our 
> interest, for 
> > example, in a reference model, is precisely the ability to support 
> > very diverse commercial and open source offers while keeping an 
> > underlying coherent model in which they are all able to 
> work together.
> > 
> > OASIS has talked about developing a "common core" of themes and 
> > messages that underpin the work of the different 
> SOA-related TCs, and 
> > it would seem that this thread has boot-strapped that 
> process...where 
> > can it go from here, rather than getting lost in posting across at 
> > least 5 lists, possibly more to come....
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> > -------------
> > Peter F Brown
> > ---
> > Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group
> > ---
> > Senior Expert
> > eGovernment - Legal, Organisational and International 
> Issues Austrian 
> > Federal Chancellery
> > ---
> > Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model
> > ---
> > Office:
> > E: peter.brown@bka.gv.at
> > T: +43 1 53115 2595
> > W: www.bka.gv.at
> > Personal:
> > E: http://public.xdi.com/=Peter.Brown
> > W: www.XMLbyStealth.net
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Hardin [mailto:john@maphin.net]
> > Sent: 16 November 2005 20:08
> > To: Goran Zugic
> > Cc: Hungenahally, Suresh; David Webber (XML); Duane Nickull; Jones, 
> > Steve; McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org; 
> > soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; 'ebSOA OASIS TC'; 
> > semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark; 
> > soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org; vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com
> > Subject: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: 
> [ebsoa] The 
> > real SOA challenge?
> > 
> > It's all very simple from my standpoint:
> > 
> > Federated Trust Network
> > Federated Registry / Repository
> > Customized Executable Business Process which operate on those 
> > federated networks.....
> > 
> > Goran Zugic wrote:
> > 
> >>David, I do not want to argue about the history. SOA (Web Services, 
> >>ebXML, and many other SOA related concepts, standards, 
> etc.) has not 
> >>suddenly emerged from nowhere.
> >> 
> >>Suresh, if I understand correctly your point, you think that the 
> >>business process modeling, grouping and taxonomy of processes are 
> >>important SOA enablers. I completely agree with you. It is very 
> >>important but not the only aspect of the entire SOA 
> picture. What I am 
> >>also interested in is the SOA enterprise architecture and real 
> >>alignment between the business and technology. No marketing 
> hype but 
> >>real
> > 
> > stuff.
> > 
> >>These are my questions. Not only for you but for everybody on this 
> >>thread. I am just using these questions to continue with discussion.
> >>Do not worry I will provide my answers later and I hope 
> that you will 
> >>keep adding new questions as well. The more questions and the more 
> >>discussions trying to form answers the better. I am sure we 
> will not 
> >>change the world but at least we can start to communicate 
> more often 
> >>and exchange ideas.
> >> 
> >>1. How do we integrate business processes we model as services and 
> >>technology? Here I mean a real automatic integration 
> without army of 
> >>developers working on the "SOA Enterprise Architecture"  to 
> implement 
> >>processes just modeled or to implement changes just 
> introduced. To me 
> >>that kind of architecture is not SOA. That is old school which we 
> >>shortly talked about in our history introduction.
> >> 
> >>2. How do we make SOA agile? Again automatic implementation 
> of changes 
> >>without coding and both static and dynamic.
> >> 
> >>3. How do we model and support business process semantics? Not just 
> >>message exchanges and message routing.
> >> 
> >>4. How do we use standards and support standard convergence?
> >> 
> >>5. What is our SOA Reference Model?
> >> 
> >>6. What is our complete SOA reference architecture?
> >> 
> >>7. Do we have an SOA methodology and what the SOA methodology is all
> > 
> > about?
> > 
> >> 
> >>8. What are our SOA best practices?
> >> 
> >>9. What are the most critical SOA missing points and 
> failures so far 
> >>and how to fix them or not repeat them?
> >> 
> >>10. What is the overall OASIS plan with regards to SOA, SOA TCs 
> >>related work and their relationship?
> >> 
> >>11. How can we start to work together and use each others 
> "products"?
> >> 
> >>12. How can we (TCs and OASIS) convince more leading vendors to be 
> >>involved in the SOA specs development and start using SOA 
> specs we are 
> >>working on?
> >> 
> >> 
> >>I think that we should keep the entire original content of the 
> >>messages for the completeness of the thread.
> >> 
> >>Goran
> >> 
> >>
> >>    ----- Original Message -----
> >>    *From:* Hungenahally, Suresh
> > 
> > <mailto:suresh.hungenahally@capgemini.com>
> > 
> >>    *To:* David Webber (XML) <mailto:david@drrw.info> ;
> >>    goran.zugic@semantion.com 
> <mailto:goran.zugic@semantion.com> ; Duane
> >>    Nickull <mailto:dnickull@adobe.com> ; John Hardin
> >>    <mailto:john@maphin.net> ; Jones, Steve
> >>    <mailto:steve.g.jones@capgemini.com>
> >>    *Cc:* McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca
> >>    <mailto:McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca> ; 
> fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>    <mailto:fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org> ; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>    <mailto:soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org> ; 
> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>    <mailto:ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org> ;
> >>    semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>    <mailto:semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org> ;
> >>    jamie.clark@oasis-open.org <mailto:jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> ;
> >>    soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>    <mailto:soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org> ;
> >>    vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com
> >>    <mailto:vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com>
> >>    *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:06 PM
> >>    *Subject:* RE: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: 
> [ebsoa] The real
> >>    SOA challenge?
> >>
> >>    Hi,
> >>     
> >>    I am new to the group.  Please bear with me if I do not 
> understand
> >>    how this works.
> >>     
> >>    Agree 100% with David Webber, the key is in this point 
> that David
> >>    makes  "So much for history - no need to dwell there - 
> the challenge
> >>    now is to bring *real business enabled XML-driven 
> processes and SOA
> >>    to fruition."*
> >>    ** 
> >>    Which means we need to clearly address:
> >>     
> >>    1. SOA and processes integration by broad domains 
> (Finance, Telco,
> >>    Transport, Defence, Government etc.) We could use 
> models such as the
> >>    eTOM as a starting point.
> >>    2. Establish a standard grouping of processes within 
> the business
> >>    domains
> >>    3. Then look at which of these can be enabled using XML.
> >>    4. In Australia the DOMEDI group did similar work in 
> the Transport
> >>    domain (thouogh for a different purpose)
> >>    5. Finally a taxonomy of the business, processes, 
> enablers and XML
> >>    transactions
> >>     
> >>    Regards.  Suresh
> >>     
> >>    ________________________________________________
> >>     
> >>    Dr. Suresh Hungenahally| *Capgemini* | Melbourne
> >>    Senior Manager
> >>    477 Collin St. Melbourne 3000 Australia
> >>    T.  + 61 3 9613 3343 | M. + 61 402 408 816| F. + 61 3 
> 9613 3333. 
> >>    E. _suresh.hungenahally_@capgemini.com
> >>    <mailto:suresh.hungenahally@capgemini.com>   |   
> www.capgemini.com
> >>    <http://www.capgemini.com>
> >>     
> >>    *Join the Collaborative Business Experience*
> >>    ________________________________________________________
> >>     
> >>
> >>
> > 
> > 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > 
> >>    *From:* David Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info]
> >>    *Sent:* Wednesday, 16 November 2005 2:55 PM
> >>    *To:* goran.zugic@semantion.com 
> <mailto:goran.zugic@semantion.com>;
> >>    Duane Nickull; John Hardin; Jones, Steve
> >>    *Cc:* McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org;
> >>    soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org;
> >>    semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org; jamie.clark@oasis-open.org;
> >>    soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org;
> >>    vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com; goran.zugic@semantion.com
> >>    *Subject:* Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: 
> [ebsoa] The real
> >>    SOA challenge?
> >>
> >>    Goran,
> >>     
> >>    While I like what you say vis SOA here - I have to take 
> you to task
> >>    on history ; -)
> >>     
> >>    The ebXML foundation came out of the work of the XML/edi Group
> >>    aligned with the work of CEFACT on ooEDI.
> >>     
> >>    It completely breaks the mold on EDI.  Yes - things 
> like ebMS are
> >>    founded on EDI+ communications - but the core of the 
> ebXMl stack -
> >>    registry-centric XML-driven collaboration - and the 
> notion of the
> >>    "Fusion of Five" is designed to sweep away the old EDI 
> practices. 
> >>    Unfortunately XML as implemented today is nothing more than a
> >>    slightly better EDI.  The whole XML revolution is yet 
> to truely take
> >>    hold.
> >>     
> >>    As for web services - this was a shameless grab by IBM 
> and Microsoft
> >>    - attempting to be first to market ahead of ebXML with 
> concepts that
> >>    in essence are nothing more than "real-time EDI" - with 
> all the same
> >>    strengths and weaknesses of the
> >>    original real-time EDI implementations - just using XML and the
> >>    internet instead of EDI and private networks.
> >>     
> >>    So much for history - no need to dwell there - the 
> challenge now is
> >>    to bring real business enabled XML-driven processes and SOA to
> > 
> > fruition.
> > 
> >>     
> >>    Cheers, DW
> >>
> >>        ----- Original Message -----
> >>         For example, Web Services are initiated with an idea of
> >>        services introduced by Microsoft 6-7 years ago and 
> this idea has
> >>        been formed from distributed computing and component-based
> >>        computing ideas and "learn on mistakes" lessons from many
> >>        organizations in 80s and 90s; ebXML is mostly based 
> on EDI ideas
> >>        and "learn on mistakes" lessons, etc.
> >>
> >>    This message contains information that may be privileged or
> >>    confidential and is the property of the Capgemini Group. It is
> >>    intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. 
> If you are not
> >>    the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print,
> >>    retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this 
> message or any
> >>    part thereof. If you receive this message in error, 
> please notify
> >>    the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message.
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > |  john c hardin
> > |  Chief Technology Officer
> > |  http://www.maphin.net
> > |  606.598.7353 office
> > |  606.813.4316 cell
> > |  mailto:john@maphin.net
> > |
> > |  Chair - OASIS ebSOA Technical Committee 
> > | http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ebsoa
> > |
> > |
> > |  "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the
> > |   image of a global village."
> > |
> > |    Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 
> > 
> |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> |  john c hardin
> |  Chief Technology Officer
> |  http://www.maphin.net
> |  606.598.7353 office
> |  606.813.4316 cell
> |  mailto:john@maphin.net
> |
> |  Chair - OASIS ebSOA Technical Committee  
> | http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ebsoa
> |
> |
> |  "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the
> |   image of a global village."
> |
> |    Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 
> |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 


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