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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] What Is A "Metaservice"?
Rex,
I still cringe but I also appreciate your point. Couple points:
1. Given there is some appreciation of the term metamodel, should we
try to align metaservice to have some consistency. Note, we are
trying to choose among misuses of meta-.
2. In your definition, would a metaservice be limited to combining
atomic services or could it combine other metaservices? No, I do not
want to get to metametaservices :-)
3. How soon would RA work need to define and otherwise name the
concept before we get overrun with the metaservice term? Do we need
to resurrect the sinkhole to collect rogue terms with which we may
have to deal?
Ken
At 03:56 PM 2/13/2006, Rex Brooks wrote:
>I think we already have the confusion, I'm sorry to say.
>
>At this point it has moved beyond being trivial and I am now hearing
>a couple of conflations of possible interpretations, and I think we
>are on the verge of doing ourselves multiple disservices.
>
>First, to reiterate my first comment on this, I don't think we need
>the term. We can already describe any amount of service metadata we
>want. However, this confusion highlights exactly what will happen in
>the minds of our public if we don't address it now that it has been
>turned into an issue of whether or not to take it seriously. That
>issue alone places it above the merely trivial and gives it enough
>weight that it is demanding out attention.
>
>The author who suggested it in the first place, was, in my opinion,
>already placing it in the weed patch with the other largely one-,
>two- or few-vendor hodgepodges of concepts currently being exploited
>under the moniker of SOA. Our effort to plant a neat, tidy garden
>has done quite well so far, and I would hate to see the weeds win,
>but we all live in the real world where a standard is only a
>standard if it is used widely. If the weeds win, we all get to play
>in their patch like it or not. So, coming to terms with something as
>imminently coinable and usable as metaservice is something we are
>faced with. Linguistically, I think it is unavoidable, so I suggest
>we pre-empt it.
>
>Since we don't need it for service metadata, perhaps we can use it
>for what it sounds like it should mean, provided we throw away the
>actual concept of what "meta" means. By that I mean defining
>metaservice a specific type of service that does nothing but
>describe combined atomic services as a type of "service" per se itself.
>
>I suggest that in order to divorce it totally and forever from the
>concept of service metadata. Of course, in this version of a
>metaservice, it would still be possible if not required for it to
>provide service metadata about itself.
>
>Regards,
>Rex
>
>At 3:07 PM -0500 2/13/06, Ken Laskey wrote:
>>Wes,
>>
>>My problem is we seem to have a term for which we are searching for
>>a meaning. We do better in making concepts clear (including
>>concepts beyond the RM) and then figuring out a descriptive name.
>>The term "metaservice" seems like confusion just begging to happen,
>>i.e. the name doesn't provide an unambiguous description and our
>>discussion points out possibilities but also doesn't know which of
>>the possibilities is needed and why.
>>
>>I dismiss out-of-hand the ambiguous creation of jargon, not in
>>developing understanding of (and naming) real problems.
>>
>>Ken
>>
>>At 02:45 PM 2/13/2006, McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca wrote:
>>>Ken,
>> From a minimalist point of view your point is valid and the RM as
>>>it now stands reflects that.
>>>
>>>For those who manage large multi-business, multi-jurisdiction,
>>>multi-departmental, multi-lingual enterprises, there may be great
>>>value in having a "meta-service" in order to assist the
>>>classification of services and provide the level of abstraction
>>>needed to ease the building of a common framework.
>>>
>>>To out-of-hand dismiss the idea, is, to say the least, self-defeating.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Wes
>>>
>>>P.S. Be careful of what you call worthless, what large SOA
>>>players are backing this RM?
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Ken Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
>>>Sent: February 13, 2006 2:23 PM
>>>To: Bashioum, Christopher D
>>>Cc: McGregor, Wesley; Rex Brooks; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] What Is A "Metaservice"?
>>>
>>> From an SOA standpoint, unless it is vital information that would
>>>somehow be made known through the service description, there is only a
>>>service and we neither know nor care whether it is atomic or meta.
>>>
>>>re another comment, I see no reason to generate a worthless definition
>>>just to beat someone else's worthless definition to the punch.
>>>
>>>Ken
>>>
>>>On Feb 13, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Bashioum, Christopher D wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just now read the actual blog, and I think Dave L. is right-on with
>>>> regard to the overall intent of better describing services in a
>>>> consistent way. In fact, I've been working on such a meta-description
>>>> for services for the DoD for a number of months now. My problem is
>>>> with the term. I made the following post to his blog
>>>>
>>>> <Post>
>>>> Agree with the article, but not the term metaservice. We are using the
>>>> term "service definition framework" for the added information used to
>>>> describe the services.
>>>>
>>>> I would submit that most of this additional information should exist
>>>> within the WSDL framework, most of it in the abstract portion. In
>>>> WSDL-2.0, it would generally be children of the Interface element.
>>>>
>>>> My problem with the term "metaservice" is that it sounds more like a
>>>> type of service (like a stock quote service, or a weather service). It
>>>> does not communicate what you are looking for. A better term might be
>>>> meta-description, or a meta-interface, or something like that
>>>> </Post>
>>>>
>>>> That being said, Joe's original comment to the SOA-RM list about a
>>>> metaservice being a "service about services" would also have another
>>>> name, depending on what it did. E.g., an aggregation service, an
>>>> orchestration service, etc. To call it a metaservice doesn't really
>>>> describe what it does. On the other hand, any service that uses other
>>>> services may be a "type" or "class" of service that uses other
>>>> services. In which case a service that is itself an aggregation of
>>>> other 'lower-level' services would be a metaservice. This might be
>>>> helpful in distinguishing between atomic services and metaservices.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 10:39 AM
>>>> To: McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [soa-rm] What Is A "Metaservice"?
>>>>
>>>> Good point Wes,
>>>>
>>>> Would it make an errata? Just to pre-empt the obvious.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Rex
>>>>
>>>> P.S. What would the equivalent be in a bus or a fabric? Can I build a
>>>> server for it? Does it do Windows?
>>>>
>>>> At 9:57 AM -0500 2/13/06, <McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Joe,
>>>>>
>>>>> The definition of "meta-service" would be dependent on the context
>>>>> in which it is used IMHO.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would note however that some company will define it soon, publish
>>>>> it, and that definition (even if erroneous) may be THE definition.
>>>>>
>>>>> To simply ignore the inevitable is to put our heads in the sand.
>>>>>
>>>>> A service about services seems logically equivalent to data about
>>>> data.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do we need to say more?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Wes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Rex Brooks
>>>> President, CEO
>>>> Starbourne Communications Design
>>>> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>>>> Berkeley, CA 94702
>>>> Tel: 510-849-2309
>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>------------------
>>>Ken Laskey
>>>MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934
>>>7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379
>>>McLean VA 22102-7508
>>
>>--
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> / Ken Laskey \
>> | MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 |
>> | 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 |
>> \ McLean VA 22102-7508 /
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--
>Rex Brooks
>President, CEO
>Starbourne Communications Design
>GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>Berkeley, CA 94702
>Tel: 510-849-2309
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ Ken
Laskey \
| MITRE Corporation, M/S H305 phone: 703-983-7934 |
| 7515 Colshire Drive fax: 703-983-1379 |
\ McLean VA 22102-7508 /
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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