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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] [For Issue #525] RE: [soa-rm] Groups - Proposed SOA-RM Relationship Names (SOA-RM Relationships Names.xls) uploaded


Joseph:

It is a valid and well documented fact that first order logic has to be
defined before anything meaningful can be done at a lower level.  That
is why UML is favored from many software professionals - it is not
ambiguous. Every ontologist I know would agree with this basic tenet. If
you and I think your example of "involves-information-characterized-by"
as a label between "interaction" and "information model" is different
that what the other thinks, the entire label is going to through the RM
into FUDville.

Without some kind of formal convention for the labels and notation,
coupled with FOL, it is very realistic that two different people will
read two different things out of the same diagram.  

I favor keeping the drawings sufficiently ambiguous and any specifics of
the relationship should be captured in the text describing the things.
Otherwise, we are on the hook to define the FOL and notational
conventions for the mind maps.

It was a nice thought - let's just let others do this.

Duane

*******************************
Adobe Systems, Inc. - http://www.adobe.com
Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT  http://www.uncefact.org/
Chair - OASIS SOA Reference Model Technical Committee
Personal Blog - http://technoracle.blogspot.com/
******************************* 


-----Original Message-----
From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 12:47 PM
To: Duane Nickull; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] [For Issue #525] RE: [soa-rm] Groups - Proposed
SOA-RM Relationship Names (SOA-RM Relationships Names.xls) uploaded

Duane,

With all due respect, I think you're over-analyzing this possibility. We
had no problem doing this in the DRM, so I don't see why it should be
different here (and Mike Daconta led that initiative from the technical
standpoint). However, I yield to yours and the TC's consensus.

Joe

Joseph Chiusano
Associate
Booz Allen Hamilton
 
700 13th St. NW, Suite 1100
Washington, DC 20005
O: 202-508-6514  
C: 202-251-0731
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Duane Nickull [mailto:dnickull@adobe.com] 
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 3:44 PM
To: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] [For Issue #525] RE: [soa-rm] Groups - Proposed
SOA-RM Relationship Names (SOA-RM Relationships Names.xls) uploaded

It is *not* that simple.  Imagine you draw a line from A to B and label
it "owns".  What does that mean?

A owns B
A owns B and B is owned by A
For all that is true in the statement A owns B, the inverse is equally
true A owns B and B is not even aware that A exists A owns B and B is
aware that A exists but does not reciprocate to the statement.
A owns B as expressed by entity X and neither A nor B are aware of the
label A owns B as visible from A but not from B A owns B as visible from
A and B A owns B and B is aware of A but does not have any specific
label on the relationship.
Etc...

There are literally 50 different variations on this one simple bit.  Now
throw in C.

A owns B and C is owned by B.

Does A even know about C?  
Etc...

Sorry - this is not something we can define given the abstract nature of
our RM without committing first order logic to the spec to define what
it means.  

Duane

*******************************
Adobe Systems, Inc. - http://www.adobe.com Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT
http://www.uncefact.org/ Chair - OASIS SOA Reference Model Technical
Committee Personal Blog - http://technoracle.blogspot.com/
******************************* 


-----Original Message-----
From: Chiusano Joseph [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 10:40 AM
To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] [For Issue #525] RE: [soa-rm] Groups - Proposed
SOA-RM Relationship Names (SOA-RM Relationships Names.xls) uploaded

<Quote>
The *only* thing we might do is define a set of coherent relationships
and use them in our diagrams.
</Quote> 

Yes, that is what I recommend. It may have been poorly worded, but the
intent of the issue (as I discussed it with the submitter) was to simply
provide clear, understandable relationship names - not ones specific to
OWL.

Joe

Joseph Chiusano
Associate
Booz Allen Hamilton
 
700 13th St. NW, Suite 1100
Washington, DC 20005
O: 202-508-6514
C: 202-251-0731
Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank McCabe [mailto:frank.mccabe@us.fujitsu.com]
Sent: Monday, May 01, 2006 1:36 PM
To: Rex Brooks
Cc: Chiusano Joseph; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [soa-rm] [For Issue #525] RE: [soa-rm] Groups - Proposed
SOA-RM Relationship Names (SOA-RM Relationships Names.xls) uploaded

I do not think that we should go anywhere near this. We did not charter
ourselves to do an OWL ontology.
The *only* thing we might do is define a set of coherent relationships
and use them in our diagrams.
Frank

On May 1, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Rex Brooks wrote:

> Yup,
>
> If we are going to provide relationship names to accommodate OWL, we 
> need to be specific about which version of OWL we want to support or 
> CAN support, given the abstract nature of the Reference Model.
>
> I would be happy with OWL DL, less happy with OWL Lite, and opposed to

> OWL Full. Going into the reasons is something we should take up in the

> f2f, because it is too lengthy for an email. However, I would prefer 
> to put this on hold for a v2.0 which I suspect is almost unavoidable, 
> though one hoped it would not be given sufficient abstraction.
>
> That said, I would select relationship names directly from the realm 
> of RDF in general and RDF Schema in particular and, for me, OWL DL and

> not make up any new ones and I would start with extremely basic, very 
> abstract, relationships and not use any terms that are open to 
> interpretation. In other words, I would try to start with compliance 
> with first-order logic. Going beyond basic classes and properties to 
> subClassOf and subPropertyOf is about as far as I would go. Otherwise 
> we open the door to a purely endless exercise in futility. It would 
> take a lot of work and I don't think we have time for it in this 
> version.
>
> This is probably not a good idea.
>
> I would prefer to see it be a separate specification, with its own set

> of requirements starting with mereology from general to specific, 
> where you define things in the isPartOf relationship not the 
> consistsOf relationship.  The difference is that there are some 
> accepted rules for mereology, and it works with formal logic. If we 
> are going to accommodate OWL now we need to make sure we are not 
> setting ourselves up for a bunch of logical contradictions by going 
> full steam ahead before looking at the landscape and figuring out what

> kind of roadmap we need.
>
> I think the spreadsheet is a good way to get concepts out where you 
> can look at them and pick away at them. I just don't think this is 
> likely to get well baked enough to include in this round, and perhaps 
> ought to be its own specification, a SOA ontology based on the RM.
> That would give us plenty of time to noodle and boil this down to 
> workability.
>
> Regards,
> Rex
>
>
>
> At 11:05 AM -0400 5/1/06, Chiusano Joseph wrote:
>> I've updated the subject for this thread to reflect the Issue #. Any 
>> thoughts on the proposed relationship names?
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Joseph Chiusano
>> Associate
>> Booz Allen Hamilton
>>
>> 700 13th St. NW, Suite 1100
>> Washington, DC 20005
>> O: 202-508-6514 C: 202-251-0731
>> Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: chiusano_joseph@bah.com [mailto:chiusano_joseph@bah.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:52 PM
>> To: soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org
>> Subject: [soa-rm] Groups - Proposed SOA-RM Relationship Names (SOA-RM

>> Relationships Names.xls) uploaded
>>
>> The document named Proposed SOA-RM Relationship Names (SOA-RM 
>> Relationships
>> Names.xls) has been submitted by Mr. Joseph Chiusano to the OASIS SOA

>> Reference Model TC document repository.
>>
>> Document Description:
>> This is related to issue #525, which described "the potential 
>> creation of an OWL ontology for SOA-RM to be considered as an upper 
>> ontology for different architectures guided by SOA-RM, in order to 
>> provide semantic interoperability between these architectures and 
>> their implementations (instances), once they are SOA-RM based.". The 
>> submitter expressed how the lack of relationship names in our spec 
>> inhibited this.
>>
>> I have worked with the submitter and Ken Laskey to create this 
>> spreadsheet of proposed relationship names for all figures that 
>> contain directed relationships. Please review and comment; you may 
>> wish to use the spreadsheet row # when referring to specific 
>> relationships. We have provided 2 sets of proposed names for each 
>> relationship (except the final
>> one) - one primary, and one alternate.
>>
>> Please also keep in mind that some of the proposed relationship names

>> may bring with them minor alterations in the relationships 
>> themselves.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Joe
>>
>> View Document Details:
>> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm/document.php? 
>> documen
>> t_id=17877
>>
>> Download Document:
>> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/soa-rm/download.php/
>> 17877/S
>> OA-RM%20Relationships%20Names.xls
>>
>>
>> PLEASE NOTE:  If the above links do not work for you, your email 
>> application may be breaking the link into two pieces.  You may be 
>> able to copy and paste the entire link address into the address field

>> of your web browser.
>>
>> -OASIS Open Administration
>
>
> --
> Rex Brooks
> President, CEO
> Starbourne Communications Design
> GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
> Berkeley, CA 94702
> Tel: 510-849-2309


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