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Subject: RE: [soa-rm-ra] RE: [soa-rm] Re: [soa-rm-ra] Comparison ofdefinitions
Can we change it slightly: Private state: The private state is that part of a service state
that is knowable by, and accessible to, only that service Shared state: Shared state is an information about service that
is knowable by, and may be accessible to, other actors. Conversation state: Conversation state is state knowable by, and
may be accessible to all participants of a conversation. Again – this is a commonly used definitions From: Ken Laskey
[mailto:klaskey@mitre.org] Ahh, that is not the way we’ve used public and private.
Current definitions: Private state: The private state is that part of an entity‘s
state that is knowable by, and accessible to, only that entity Shared state: Shared state is that part of an entity‘s state
that is knowable by, and may be accessible to, other actors. In order for a state to be shared, it must be public. Ken From: mpoulin@usa.com [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com] Would you agree that 'public'
means that anybody can get the thing while 'private' means that only limited
and permitted persons can get the thing? If you agree, then an interaction
between a consumer and a service may be private while the service may be
publicly accessible. If anybody can interfere with service interaction, it is
public interaction; otherwise, it is private. I think this is very clear. - Michael -----Original Message----- No, the internal counter is
not public. Ken From: mpoulin@usa.com
[mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
This means that ALL service
results are always shared with, at least , the result requester. It is OK with
me. Now, we have to proof that
everything is public in SOA ecosystem and close all questions about RWE and
service... - Michael -----Original Message----- No, it is shared between the
requester and the calculator/service. If the requester has internal
processes that increments a counter every time the calculator returns a result,
this would be a private result. Ken From: mpoulin@usa.com
[mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
- Michael -----Original Message----- Calculator does processing
and returns the result of the processing. Ken From:
Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com] Ken, This is going to my comments
earlier. If you ask a guy on the street, that the terms that he thinks in
(Sorry Michael, has nothing to do with WS). You red inlining is exactly a
kind of explanation that is required + we need to describe what this change
buys to system designer. As for the calculator
example, I can’t agree (sound Michael like). There is no screen – calculator is
a service – it gets a message and returns a message back From: Ken
Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
Is there any major damage by
my using red wording inline below? As for importance of RWE, it
is what someone wants and why they use service. The RWE of a calculator
is the result it displays. Ken From:
Lublinsky, Boris [mailto:boris.lublinsky@navteq.com] Let’s try differently: ·
In accepted terms a service has an interface(s) – Service
interface ·
Service interface has method(s) – Service methods. Service
interface defines message exchange with service ·
A service method (not a service) can be invoked. Message
to service Interface triggers service action through corresponding private
actions ·
Service method provides an execution result. Triggering
a service action lead to results. ·
An execution result can either change a service state or return
an error Public Results are changes in states or a return of information ·
A change in a service state may (or not) produce RWE Changes
to public states produce RWE So far this is excepted set
of thing that most of practitioners will relate to Now here is a list of
questions: ·
How is service action relates to the above? is it a service
method invocation? ·
Why do we care so much about RWE? A calculator is a useful service
with no RWE From: Ken
Laskey [mailto:klaskey@mitre.org]
Let’s try it this way:
a service action (by which I mean an action from the Action Model) results in
the change of public and possibly private states. The change in public
states is RWE, the change in private states is unknown to the SOA ecosystem
unless these become public at a later time. Ken From: mpoulin@usa.com
[mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Ken, I gave this example as an
evidence of inconsistency and brocken/forgotten dependency between definitions. I have to be more accurate:
"then we have said that that
result is outside the scope of our consideration" is
not the same as "we
just said it is not what we are considering under RWE".
The latter I is true if RWE is public only BUT the former may be understood as
that private service result is out of the scope of RAF! This I cannot agree
with because BOTH types of result belong to the SOA ecosystem. Service Action produces private
(always) and public (sometimes) results and only the public one is RWE. If you
agree with this statement, than the purpose of the service is to produce Result
whether public or private, or both. - Michael -----Original Message----- Michael, I agree with most of your
points, except the final one on RWE. Someone may use a service to satisfy
some private need but if the result is only known privately, then we have said
that that result is outside the scope of our consideration. We didn’t say
the private result didn’t occur, we just said it is not what we are considering
under RWE. Ken --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dr. Kenneth Laskey MITRE Corporation, M/S
H305
phone: 703-983-7934 7515 Colshire
Drive
fax: 703-983-1379 McLean VA 22102-7508 From: mpoulin@usa.com
[mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Before going through details and
definitions, I think we have to agree on the a few principles. Since RAF is about SOA ecosystem
and we agreed that this one includes both business and technology then: 1) we cannot operate with
definitions from RM with no changes because RM did not considered
ecosystem. However, the changes of RM definitions should not deny the
original definitions but may modify/extend them for the new context -
ecosystem 2) all definitions we use have to
be either meaningful/"interepretable" in both Business
and Technology or we have explicitly identify the scope of the
definition and justify that it does not work in the entire ecosystem ( in
this case we will never confuse SOA-based system with 'just'/technical system 3) we have to draw a relationship/dependency
lines (like in Value Networks) between our definitions to see consistency and
influence between them. This better be not in a table
format but in a map format. For example, in one place we say that service
purpose is to provide a RWE; in another place we say that RWE is only
shared/pubic thing; this leads to the conclusion that the purpose of service is
to provide only shared/pubic thing, which is
incorrect. If we can
agree on these principles and approach, we can eliminate a lot of unnecessary
discussions - Michael -----Original Message----- As promised, attached is a
comparison of the terms defined in the 28 July 2010 draft alongside the
definitions used in the latest draft (in Excel and .ods formats) As you will see, there are precious
few instances of where the definitions match exactly, although in many cases it
was more a case of cleaning up the wording (particularly to conform with
standards for definitions, eg ISO 1087) than actually changing the definition. Regards, Peter Peter F Brown Independent Consultant Transforming our Relationships
with Information Technologies Blog
pensivepeter.wordpress.com LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/pensivepeter Twitter @pensivepeter P.O. Box 49719, Los Angeles, CA
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