From: "Peter F Brown" <peter@peterfbrown.com>
To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>
Cc: "Neil McEvoy" <neil.mcevoy@ifossfoundation.org>, "Jamie Clark" <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>, "Heather Kreger" <kreger@us.ibm.com>, "soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org" <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Martin Chapman" <martin.chapman@oracle.com>, "Chet Ensign" <chet.ensign@oasis-open.org>
Subject: RE: RE: [soa-rm] Future structure of JTC 1/SC38
Very interesting and useful distinctions, thanks!
Sent from a Phone. Apologies for brevity - it's not easy writing on a moving planet.
From: Mike Poulin
Sent: 14/08/2014 01:32
To: Peter F Brown
Cc: Neil McEvoy; Jamie Clark; Heather Kreger; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; Martin Chapman; Chet Ensign
Subject: Re: RE: [soa-rm] Future structure of JTC 1/SC38
From: "Peter F Brown" <peter@peterfbrown.com>
To: "Mike Poulin" <mpoulin@usa.com>, "Neil McEvoy" <neil.mcevoy@ifossfoundation.org>
Cc: "Jamie Clark" <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>, "Heather Kreger" <kreger@us.ibm.com>, "soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org" <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>, "Martin Chapman" <martin.chapman@oracle.com>, "Chet Ensign" <chet.ensign@oasis-open.org>
Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Future structure of JTC 1/SC38
Michael,
Broadly agree with you on all points.
On our one point of disagreement, I think I was merely imprecise in my statement and we would otherwise agree. It should have read something like “presumably any and all *IT* beyond one’s own domain, is necessarily ‘cloud’". In the sense that a business’s relationship with any IT ‘offering’ made from outside of their controlled domain would be indistinguishable from anything that is today labelled as ‘cloud’.
I agree that all the other aspects of business and enterprise remain part of one’s own domain.
Regards,
Peter
From: Mike Poulin [mailto:mpoulin@usa.com]
Sent: Wednesday, 13 August, 2014 05:34
To: Neil McEvoy
Cc: Jamie Clark; Heather Kreger; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; Peter F Brown; Martin Chapman; Chet Ensign
Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Future structure of JTC 1/SC38
Hi All,
though I disagree with Neil that "traditional (What is this?) SOA is a design blueprint based around a single computing environment", I also think that the basic concept of Cloud is a service orientation.
(BTW, SOA does not care about particular computing environment becuase SOA is _architecture_ while an environmnet is an element of Execution Context or SOA implementaition)
Anyway, Cloud is nothing more than outsourced IT. That is, it never will be "as an overall single computing environment" becuase we do not outsource everything. Moreover, if you follow the state of Cloud in the consumer world, it is found by many CIO/CTO/CEO that Cloud (especially Public Cloud) has an array of serious unresolved business issues. That is, Cloud is a quite immature SOA realisation so far.
I think that SOA RAF covers more than SOA and Cloud via its SO Ecosystem concept. [Please, note, I say SO not SOA ecosystem!]
I disagree with Peter in that "presumably anything, everything, beyond one’s own domain, is necessarily “cloud”". We are talking here apples and oranges. Cloud is outsourced IT, but the enterprise and its IT can still exist. Plus, SOA is over IT and Business (any business was and is service-oriented by nature). That is, even if IT has deprted into Cloud togehter with its services, an enterprise business remans in the company with its services (business capabilities and functions).
Inside business, there may be several ownership realms as well. Overall, SO Ecosystem comprises the internal (for an enterprise) ownership realms and external ones. The latter includes oursourced business functions like HR, Payroll, etc. as well as technology functions like Clouds (IaaS, SaaS, PaaS, etc.).
As a result, a SO Ecosystem is this "everything" entity while Cloud is only one element of it, particulary, technology-centric element. A number of non-technology elements of SO Ecosystem is huge and they are known as business services (see my book about Business Archtiecture based on combination of SO and Value Network).
It is another matter that SC38 and analogous organisations focus on technology only. I hope that they will not make the same mistake as TOGAF made by seeing business through the prism of IT (when the real world is exactly reversed). I am saying that Cloud as a form of SOA implementation and part of SO Ecosystem can be researched and standardised itself. Nevertheless, we should not say that a SO Ecosystem is nothing more than Cloud.
Regards,
- Michael Poulin
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2014 at 8:24 PM
From: "Neil McEvoy" <neil.mcevoy@ifossfoundation.org>
To: "Jamie Clark" <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>
Cc: "Heather Kreger" <kreger@us.ibm.com>, soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org, "Peter F Brown" <peter@peterfbrown.com>, "Martin Chapman" <martin.chapman@oracle.com>, "Chet Ensign" <chet.ensign@oasis-open.org>
Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Future structure of JTC 1/SC38
Hello folks
My 2c would be to highlight the growing role of 'the Cloud' as an overall single computing environment, a 'Global SOA' so to speak, as defined by a single addressing system most notably OASIS standards like XDI, with equally global shared services like Identity authentication achieved via common standards like SAML, OAuth et al.
The traditional SOA is a design blueprint based around a single computing environment but one defined at the enterprise level, a 'Corporate SOA'. Common shared services etc., but within a scope defined by their own internal corporate addressing mechanisms, directory systems etc.
So this shift retains the same architectural approach but simply abstracts it to work at the scope of this larger environment, the Cloud, where it works the same way using single shared services and so on, but where these shared services are achieved via a single global addressing system, not just within one corporate LAN domain.
A few years back I coined the idea of D-SOA: Distributed SOA, to reflect this same scope change, where services are invoking other services in remote domains, as enabled by this XDI addressing.
Kind regards, Neil.
On Fri, Aug 8, 2014 at 1:21 AM, Jamie Clark <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> wrote:
Greetings Heather (and all). I was wondering about that myself. David Linthicum's not the only one who thinks that service-orientation applies to cloud systems. Maybe there's some room to huddle on building support for a naming compromise.
Where would the TC like to go with this?
Cordially, Jamie
James Bryce Clark, General Counsel
OASIS: Advancing open standards for the information society
https://www.oasis-open.org/staff
www.twitter.com/JamieXML
http://t.sina.cn/jamiexml
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On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Heather Kreger <kreger@us.ibm.com> wrote:
Just as input into the brain taxing,
IMHO, it would be much better to not be so restrictive with the name of just 'cloud'. There may be some proposals that it retain some of its former scope in the name like 'Cloud and Distributed Applications'... or many others that have been bantied about.
Sincerely,
Heather Kreger
Distinguished Engineer, CTO International Standards, IBM
kreger@us.ibm.com
919-543-3211 cell:919-496-9572 home office: 919-853-3772
From: Peter F Brown <peter@peterfbrown.com>
To: "soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org" <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>,
Cc: Martin Chapman <martin.chapman@oracle.com>, "Jamie Clark, OASIS" <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org>
Date: 08/07/2014 07:23 PM
Subject: [soa-rm] Future structure of JTC 1/SC38
Sent by: <soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org>
Hi,
I attach for information a document from the SC38 secretariat concerning the future structure of the SC (please, not for redistribution).
Martin Chapman is in copy, both as a fellow OASIS Board member but also because he shares with Ken and me, a role as a liaison between OASIS and SC38.
As you can see, the proposed shift of focus is from “distributed systems” to cloud computing. In this new scenario, SOA becomes something of an architectural underpinning and paradigm for cloud, which makes sense.
So a question to tax our brains a little before the weekend:
If SOA concerns a paradigm of service delivery across ownership boundaries, then presumably anything, everything, beyond one’s own domain, is necessarily “cloud”?
All cloud architectures are arguably SOA (if you take the paradigmatic approach of the OASIS work at least) but can we think of *any* SOA ecosystem that is anything more than cloud? What?
If so, then I think we need to make the case against the shift of scope of the SC as there would be no home, in theory, for any non-cloud SOA work in the future. FWIW, I’m good with the approach proposed and actually think that our RAF may even fit better in this new arrangement – but I don’t want to jump the gun.
Martin, we haven’t talked about this but happy to hear any other views. Also whether we want to look for opinions from other TCs, more squarely in the existing cloud scope.
Regards,
Peter
Peter F Brown
Independent Consultant
CIPP/IT
”Using Information Technologies to Empower and Transform”
200 S Barrington Ave., #49719
Los Angeles, CA 90049, USA
Tel: +1.310.694.2278
www.PeterFBrown.com[attachment "ISO-IECJTC1-SC38_N1090__SC_38_Chair_and_Secretary_Contributi.pdf" deleted by Heather Kreger/Raleigh/IBM]
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