RE: [ms@ms.lt: [xtm-wg] Re: Agenda for Dallas]

["Jean Delahousse" <jean.delahousse@mondeca.com>]

Hello,
I am sorry, I will not be able to attend Dallas meeting.

Good luck for this important meeting

Jean Delahousse
CEO Mondeca
Mobile : +33(0)6 16 90 73 95
Tel : +33(0)1 47 46 18 89
Fax : +33(0)1 47 46 01 09
www.mondeca.com

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Steven R. Newcomb [mailto:srn@coolheads.com]
> Envoyé : mardi 7 novembre 2000 01:02
> À : xtm-wg@egroups.com
> Objet : [ms@ms.lt: [xtm-wg] Re: Agenda for Dallas]
>
>
> [Andrius Kulikauskas:]
> > I agree, in spirit, with Steve's agenda.  But I think that having
> > one day each for ISS and CMS will not be most productive.  It's hard
> > for people to "sit on their hands" all day and not present their own
> > point of view, especially when it's relevant.  But jumping in on
> > details, before presenting the big picture, is a tremendous waste of
> > energy.  It also wastes energy whenever trying to relate with, or
> > reword, or rethink, another point of view is interpreted as a
> > challenge to that point of view, as a rejection or refutation (the
> > two are both important, but very different, and it's awful to
> > confuse them).  As an alternative, I propose:
>
> > Day 1:  Half day each to the current members of the CMS working group,
> > and the ISS working gropu, can present their results, and the
> > outstanding issues.  The CMS presentation in Montreal was great.
>
> > Day 2: Half day each so that All of us can think from the CMS point of
> > view, and from the ISS point of view, so that we understand their points
> > of view, are sympathetic to them, and build on them to resolve issues.
>
> > Day 3: We forget about the CMS and ISS distinction, and think as one big
> > group to resolve all outstanding issues.
>
> > This is the same in spirit, but I think better prepares us for Day 3,
> > which is a very important and difficult day.
>
> > What do you think?
>
> The first agenda item will be the lunch arrangements, because if it
> isn't, there will be no lunch.
>
> I guess the second agenda item is the agenda, since Andrius wants it
> to be done differently than I suggested.  He has a good point.  I
> think he's right that it would be better to get the whole picture
> before delving into it more deeply.
>
> However, what constitutes the whole picture, and how to get it, is the
> real issue here.  Andrius's proposal is good, but mine, in which there
> is one whole day devoted to each of the two models, is better.  Here's
> why I think so.
>
> I do not believe we will all "get" either model in only half a day of
> discussion.  What we face here is a mutual language-acquisition
> problem.  The most efficient language-acquisition technique is
> immersion.  The immersion technique of language acquisition is to
> prohibit discourse in any language other than the language that is to
> be acquired.  If you can't ask a question using the language you're
> attempting to acquire, that's good: learn the language, so you can ask
> the question.  That may involve asking a lot of other questions.
> That's good, too.  It's all language-acquisition.
>
> I want everyone to become fully immersed in the universe of discourse
> of each group.  If we don't fully have the jargon of each model firmly
> in our minds, we will *certainly* talk right past each other, as we
> have often done in the past, and the meeting will not result in a
> united intent -- disaster.  It's a disaster that can only be avoided
> by the serious, hard work of careful listening and accurate language
> acquisition.  Yes, learning involves a lot of "sitting on your hands"
> and keeping your mouth shut.  It's the most challenging sitting you'll
> ever do.  I don't want questions about how the two models should be
> married up, or even about how the two universes of discourse map to
> one another, to be asked until both models have fully sunk into each
> and every brain in the room.  In other words, enjoy the fucking, and
> save the orgasm for the end.
>
> During the first two days, I don't want to permit questions about one
> model to be posed in terms of the other model.  Everybody must become
> bilingual.  Half a day isn't going to provide enough immersion.  It's
> going to take half a day just to be able to learn the terminology of a
> model, before the deep questions can even be asked in the terms of
> that model.  For each of us to learn and use the other model's jargon
> is also a powerful gesture of mutual respect.  It's important, and it
> is not a waste of time.  It's what we're there to do.
>
> Furthermore, I believe that we need to understand what's wrong with or
> weak about each model, in its own terms.  A half-day overview will not
> give us that level of insight.  I want to bring out and make visible
> the residual concerns of the individuals in each group, and I want to
> have the time to do that while we're still all immersed in that
> group's model.
>
> Therefore, I greatly prefer the "one day, one model" approach, because
> it's vital to get everyone's head fully around each separate model.
> And I don't want anyone to be worrying about what they're going to say
> about their own model, unless it happens to be their model's day in
> the sun.  I want everyone to be thinking about the model that's
> currently on the table, at all times.
>
> But it doesn't matter what I want, except as a Participating Member.
> The Participating Members control the agenda, here.  So, I guess we'll
> begin by deciding the question of the interaction between the agenda
> and the schedule.  Anyway, now you know how I will argue for the
> "one model, one full day" approach.
>
> -Steve
>
> --
> Steven R. Newcomb, Consultant
> srn@coolheads.com
>
> voice: +1 972 359 8160
> fax:   +1 972 359 0270
>
> 405 Flagler Court
> Allen, Texas 75013-2821 USA
>
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