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Subject: Re: [ubl-comment] UBL comments on ebXML Core Components TechnicalSpecification v1.8
May I note that there is a difference between a proposed draft and your characterization that the "UBL TC has recommended"? This topic is still under discussion. At Monday, 29 April 2002, Todd Boyle <tboyle@rosehill.net> wrote: >UBL TC has recommended that the Core Component Type and >Representation Term (CCT and RT) "Identifier" be eliminated from >the CCTS. > > If a code is used as a way of representing the value of something, an > identifier provides unambiguous identification of an object. The two are > not alternatives, they are complementary to each other. > > They can be confused because we often use codes to identify things. > Country codes uniquely identify countries. But we can also use strings > of text (e.g. names such as URLs) and unbounded sets of values (e..g. > unique numbers such as phone numbers, SSID, tax file numbers, etc..) as > identifiers. The value of an identifier tells you which thing in a set > of similar things you're talking about. > > In addition, codes are not always identifiers. It depends on the context > of their use. For example, within the object class Country, the value > ‘AU’ is the unique identification of Australia. But, when used in other > contexts, such as Shipping Location, ‘AU’ will not be unique – it is > still a code, but it is not an identifier of the Shipping Location. > > We have this mix of relationships because a code is a representation, > whereas ‘identification’ is actually a property, a function of the use > an object. > > Proposal 9 > > The use of Identifier as a Representation Term (and Core Component Type > if they still exist –[Proposal 3]) should be discontinued. > > The property of ‘Identifier’ may exist as a Property Term. The > representation of this may be as a Code, Text, Number, or any other > Representation Term. > >Regardless of what can be said, about the matter, there *are* >identification schemes in the universe both global (DUNS, EAN/UCC etc..) >and within internal systems (customer and vendor lists, product >lists, accounts etc.) These are utterly ubiquitous. How do you >propose to reference them? With a mere character string, apparently. >This would imply that every community somehow establish and >maintain common frames of reference out-of-band, or, that only >markets already having frames of reference can use ebXML? > >I think it would be very helpful if the UBL TC explain more precisely >why the Identifier is not an RT or CCT. If "Code" is a semantic >primitive, referencing a string or number in a scheme someplace, >then why isn't "Identifier" a semantic primitive, referencing a >collection of elements such as a party or product record? > >(Certainly, I hope UBL TC is not just making the suggestion >because XML parsers or some other tool, can't easily resolve >Identifiers... because, tools should follow ontology not the >reverse.) > >You have made the assertion that " ‘identification’ is actually a >property, a function of the use an object." I don't get it. IMO, >an identifier seldom is a property (attribute of something else). > >An Identifier refers to a discrete, real *thing* in every scenario >that really matters. SMEs need a way to point to product records, >party records and a plethora of other Identification Schemes >without the approval of registration authorities, vendors or >their supply chain masters. The whole reason I'm here working >in UN/CEFACT is to avoid being trapped in all those other >registries and identification schemes, already waitin for us >in Redmond, or at DUNs, Verisign and fifty other expensive, >controlled lists who all charge excessive rents. > >I think I can guess what you guys in UBL will start using for >product, party and other identifiers. You will start creating >elements like "PartyDUNSnumber". Please tell me I'm >wrong! :-) > >Private monopolies like DUNS and EAN/UCC etc. would >generally charge as much rent as the market would bear, >and governments and corporations would increasingly >snoop, regulate, tax, etc. these global monolithic things. >You'll never find any tunes or warez or IP telephone >schemes in there. And SMEs would not be able to >sell a whole lot of other cheap things either. > >If Identifiers with URIs disappear from the CCTS, then, >perhaps CODE should also disappears because it is exactly >the same kind of animal, having such extensive behavior and >context built into it. > >Alternatively, CODE might perhaps, be expanded to include >a data resolver URI and schema URI, so that users can use it >as we planned to use Identifier Type (pointing to identification >schemes.) > >Finally, Identifier Type should NOT be discontinued, without >at same time, providing some alternative method for referencing >both global and internal identification schemes. > >Perhaps the Core Components team should seek help from >the RM and RegRep teams, for this whole Code/Identifier >thing. It is an automation artifact as much as business >semantic artifact, > >Respectfully >TOdd Boyle > >At 11:11 PM 4/28/02, Tim McGrath wrote: >>In response to the UN/CEFACT's Electronic Business Transition ad-hoc >>Working Group's (eBTWG) call for comments on their ebXML Core Components >>Technical Specification (see http://www.ebtwg.org/news/040402.html), we >>are attempting to prepare a consolidated response from UBL members based >>on our recent experiences with implmenting some of the concepts and rules >>indentified. >> >>Please find attached the current working draft of this response. If you >>would like to contribute or comment on our comments, then please do so >>within the next 48 hours using this list. We plan to discuss these >>responses at this week's NDR and LC subcommittee meetings. The date for >>submission to the eBTWG is Saturday May 4th. >> >>-- >>regards >>tim mcgrath >>fremantle western australia 6160 >>phone: +618 93352228 fax: +618 93352142 >> > >---------------------------------------------------------------- >To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription >manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> > --------------------------- Michael C. Rawlins Rawlins EC Consulting www.rawlinsecconsulting.com
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