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Subject: Re: Kavi meeting with the UBL chairs
Anne and Everyone,
I've included my response inline.
Regards,
Jeff
> 1.
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ubl/ubl-lcsc/
> click on the "QA Team Conference call".
> Get "Resource not found".
> This was recent email, so it was on my 'Group' member page
> - it wasn't something I had to do a search on from the archives -
> so I would have expected the link to work if it's showing up on
> my member page under the 'recent email' list.
I have not have the same experience. When I click on the link for ether
conference call I get a page with call info on it. I'll be keeping an eye
out for this sort of behavior since it may suggest the presence of an
intermittent problem.
> 2.
> Click on 'Join' button at the bottom of
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ubl/ubl-lcsc/members/upload.php
> Takes you to the same 'Rerource not found" page.
Fixed.
>> General
>> -------
>>
>> 1.
>> The problem begins with the fact that Kavi makes it difficult
>> to disseminate the information on the daily activity of the
>> TC to the general public. We want our work to be open to
>> the general public to view. Kavi requires a password to
>> view the contents of the group pages. If we use those
>> group pages as they were intended (as repositories for
>> documents, calendar info, etc) then we make that information
>> inaccessible to the public. This is against the nature of
>> the standards process. The standards process is an *open*
>> process. At least people certainly have been used to OASIS
>> operating that way. If we now require passwords in order
>> for people to view the work of the TCs, that is a significant
>> change in policy which I'm not sure will be very well received.
>> I think this is the single most important problem with the current
>> implementation. Why do we need a password to get to TC information?
>> Why is this information now restricted? This is a serious
>> collaboration inhibitor. The driving factor appears to be
>> revenue for OASIS, but this could backfire.
There are public views of TC information:
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ubl
There are public views of SC information:
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/sc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ubl-asc
Information submitted through the TC/SC member page is viewable from these
pages assuming that the information is not marked as private.
Karl is the policy guru, so I'll let him speak to the details of your policy
concerns. Suffice it to say I am not aware of any changes in OASIS' policy
for maintaining accessibility to TC information.
>> 2.
>> The inability to place documents in a static area of the web
>> site is essential for maintaining continuity of information,
>> particularly if that information only changes infrequently
>> (eg. UBL Events Calendar). There are currently 2 problems,
>> one which is mentioned above in terms of not having public
>> access to all information on the web site, but even if that is
>> solved, the current document areas only show the last couple
>> of documents or just the day's email messages. How do I
>> easily get yesterday's or the day before or the week before
>> to find a document that hasn't changed since it was posted?
>> It seems I would need to go back out and use the public lists,
>> if it was in an email, but if it was not in email, we don't have
>> the ability to easily retrieve it, that I can see. We need a web
>> site area where we can place and periodically update information
>> that is not appropriate to send in email and requires more
>> continuity/availability than an email message or document
>> that quickly scrolls out of site. This is one of the features
>> that was provided by the OASIS server disk space and ftp access,
>> and is still needed.
Better and more consistent management of a document's lifecycle is an issue
we are well aware of. The KAVI system has serious flaws in this regard. We
are working on finding the right solution to this problem.
>> 3.
>> We require a 'work area' that is semi-invisible and can be
>> organized and reorganized without too much concern, but
>> provides the ability to store/share documents. Kavi
>> imposes structure, but the structure is too flat and
>> also too time-sensitive to provide this feature.
>> The OASIS server was being used as such a disk repository,
>> with ftp access giving the ability for manipulation
>> (although limited) of files. We had a many levels of
>> directories to organize the content. We lack this in
>> Kavi - to my knowledge there is no way to build a heirarchy
>> of information within the Kavi structure. It's unclear
>> to me why the ftp and disk access is being removed, and
>> there is no viable alternative provided. Two examples
>> of the use we had for ftp to the OASIS site are:
>> a) the lcsc 'working area' where we had many documents
>> in various forms of finalization that could be
>> accessed easily by the chairs and editors and
>> provided a backing store that could be easily
>> manipulated; they were all accessible at once
>> in one place. We no longer have that in Kavi.
>> b) I was storing our comments on disk on the OASIS server.
>> This was working very well, and helped to keep things
>> organized. What does Kavi offer to replace this?
>> How can I get that functionality back? I am now
>> storing this info on my system at home. This is
>> not a good idea (no backups!) I would like disk
>> space again.
You can create TC/SC member only directories in the Kavi doc repository.
You can even create sub directories as you wish (assuming you have those
privileges). While I would agree that the Kavi doc repository will not work
for long-term doc storage and access. It should work fine for temporary
storage and dissemination of drafts and such.
If you go to http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ubl/documents.php
and click on "Add New Folder" you will be brought to a page that will lead
you through the process of adding new folders and assigning their parent
directory.
You said, "to my knowledge there is no way to build a heirarchy of
information within the Kavi structure." My understanding was that OASIS
provided training to the TC chairs. Did you or someone else in your TC
attend any of these training sessions? There are also two other ways of
getting help with using the Kavi Ap:
1. Context-Based help: Clicking on the "Help" button will bring up
context-based help which may be the easiest way to finding the right answer
in some circumstances.
2. Contacting webmaster@oasis-open.org: Sending mail to
webmaster@oasis-open.org gets you directly in touch with first tier tech
support.
>> 4.
>> Kavi places all email/docs/rep lists/etc from all subsc's
>> in one list. This is not practical - I need to be able to
>> sort the mail and other info by SC and SubSC. I just looked
>> at the 'customization' page. This is too much overhead.
>> It was just fine to go to the mail list link and look at
>> things 'by date' or 'by thread', or whatever, and be able
>> to do a search otherwise. Where are those features?
Can I assume that you are talking about the "My Groups" page? The short
answer is the features you are looking for do not exist. But I will add
this item to the list of existing feature requests for the "My Groups" page.
>> 5.
>> I noticed that our minutes html document has a broken gif.
>> How do we place html files in Kavi so that all their
>> images, etc go along with them?
Good question. There isn't an easy way to drop html doc into the repository
in such a way that they reference images in the repository. Can you give me
some example of images that you use in documents?
>> 6.
>> There seems to be information missing. For instance,
>> the membership list of the ebXML IIC contains only 2 people.
>> Perhaps this is because only two of the people on the
>> alias have formal OASIS membership. However, if that
>> is the reason there are only two people listed, this
>> is a brutal way to transition people who are volunteering
>> their time on these efforts.
TC rosters are managed by TC Chairs. You will have to consult with Jacques
Durand or Jeffery Eck with regard to ebxml-iic roster issues.
>> 7.
>> People are still not getting email. Please check to
>> see if robert.shanbaum@gerbercoburn.com is on the UBL TC
>> and UBL LSC lists, and if not,let me know what needs to be
>> done to add him. It's not reasonable to take the membership
>> of such a large organization and expect everyone to drop
>> what they are doing to fix these problems. This should
>> have been scoped out before-hand and all requirements
>> communicated. The original email aliases were available
>> and could have been mapped against the OASIS membership
>> list *before* the rollout. Then a staged roll-out would
>> have been appropriate so people (chairs) could have been
>> walked through the changes. It's still not too late to do this,
>> since there are still many changes to be made to the system,
>> and still email list discrepancies. This should be done in
>> one operation now for all the tcs. [I suspect that this issue
>> belongs to me almost entirely -- Jon]
I do not see him on the roster. Assuming that he is a member of OASIS, he
will need to join this TC. Until he has done this, there isn't much for Jon
to do.
>> 8.
>> Search is not scoped in a way as to be useful. I can search
>> all groups or one group, but not the groups I belong to.
>> Some of the things on my home page relate to my groups
>> (documents, mail, etc) and some relate to all of OASIS
>> (company members, search, etc). I don't see any capability
>> to search for individual items (documents, etc). or to
>> limit the scope to a set of dates. Perhaps I don't see
>> this and it's there somewhere.
noted
>> 9.
>> Communication of the benefits would be helpful here.
>> I don't recall seeing any notification on the OASIS
>> site that there would be a transition and for the
>> general public, who may have come to visit over the
>> past month, to understand what is happening and why.
>> There's nothing there now to ease the uncertainty
>> of people who are going to the site and finding
>> everything changed and a lot broken.
I think there have been announcements to both the chairs list and the
members list.
>> 10.
>> The one feature I've found slightly useful is the calendar,
>> but I think I could get a calendar for less headache.
>> Specific link problems
>> ----------------------
>>
>> 1.
>> If I follow a link to http://oasis-open.org/committees/ubl/lsc/,
>> then click on a link from that page to another (old-style) link
>> within OASIS (eg. http://oasis-open.org/committees/ubl/) I am
>> redirected to
>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ubl
>> and can no longer use the 'Back' button to get to the page(s)
>> I came from ('Back' simply puts me in a continuous a redirect
>> 'loop' over and over back to
>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ubl.
There was a need to maintain link persistence between the old site and the
new. The only way to do that was to create redirects.
>> 2.
>> I have a lot of bookmarks (and I'm sure I'm not the only one)
>> to the tc pages. These are some where I get errors:
>>
>> a.
>> http://oasis-open.org/committees/archives/ubl-lcsc/
>> http://oasis-open.org/committees/ubl/msc/200204/ Not Found
This is an apache config issue I am trying to work around.
>> http://oasis-open.org/committees/ubl/lsc/200204/industry.pdf Blank page
This doc comes up for me
>>
>> b.
>> From a January email to lcsc from Tim:
>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-lcsc/200301/msg00010.html
>> gets you to http://lists.oasis-open.org/css/top.css and 'Not Found'.
>> and then if I hit the 'Back' button after that I get 'Network Error:
>> connection refused', and can't go back.
That doesn't happen for me. I get an email from Tim McGrath with the
subject "Re: [ubl-lcsc] [QA Team] Feedback on Methodology Paper"
>> c.
>> From http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-lcsc/ click on the
>> 200301 (January 2003) 'by date' link. You get the same problem
>> as above:
>> gets you to http://lists.oasis-open.org/css/top.css and 'Not Found'.
>> and then if I hit the 'Back' button after that I get 'Network Error:
>> connection refused', and can't go back.
I get the ubl-lsc archive listing. Not the problem you describe.
>> d.
>> After this, no matter what link I click on that lists page I
>> get the same error. I think it kills the server. As a matter
>> of fact, at this point, if I go all the way back up to
>> http://lists.oasis-open.org/ and choose *any* of the tc lists,
>> then try to view any of the list by clicking on any of the 'by *'
>> links, I get the same error. I do think if the server is not dead
>> now at least it is not answering requests. Kavi appears brittle.
Hmm....
>> So I've spent just a little over an hour now and have found these
>> problems. I only had to go through 10 of my old email messages to
>> get this many issues. I believe it should be up to OASIS to test
>> this software and do a proper staging before rolling it out into
>> a production system. I wonder if any requirements-gathering was
>> done, because the issue of public access to the TC work seems
>> fundamental, and not to have been considered in the choice of
>> how to roll out this software. I think it's possible the
>> software may be able to be configured to provide global
>> access, but I haven't heard of this being tried out.
>>
>> It certainly needs more off-line testing.
I agree that there are still bugs to work out. Some of them we hadn't
noticed until we loaded the system with all of our TC's data and got folks
using the system. It would have been nice to get more input from chairs
during pre-launch, but most didn't communicate any information with us until
we went live.
>> 2.
>> Going through the private web pages, doing 'view all' on email for the lcsc,
>> clicking on 'month' for 200303, gets:
>> http://www.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-lcsc/ubl-lcsc.200303.gz,
>> and a 'not found'. Are the archives supposed to be gzipped??
Yes, they are. I am in the process of bringing this feature offline as one
of many measure to block email addresses from being harvested by spammers
(another topic altogether that we're not going to get into here).
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