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Subject: Re: [ubl-csc] Summary of my confusion in 0.80 vis-a-vis Londondecisions

OK, now I understand why you were so concerned and why I probably seemed to
you to be so nonchalant, maintaining that the changes proposed should 
not cause
you to lose sleep... I believe there was a massive misunderstanding 
between us. I
did not, as far as I remember, say that there was going to be no type 
reuse, as you
obviously heard me say. I did not say, as far as I remember, that for 
each global
element there was going to be a  type to be used for that, and only 
that, element.
It is obviously what you heard, but it is not what I said. The reason 
I'm pretty sure
that's not what I said is that I would certainly oppose such proposal, 
and I would
have probably been as disturbed by it as you were (for reasons that were a
mystery for me at the time).


G. Ken Holman wrote:

> Good morning CSC members,
> Per yesterday's CSC meeting, I would like to summarize my perspective 
> on a very confusing situation in which I find myself regarding 
> migrating FPSC work from 0.70 to 0.80.  I've been on the critical path 
> waiting for 0.80 schemas to begin the next phase of FPSC work by team 
> members.
> Leaving London I was under the impression I would need to abandon my 
> 0.70 approach to stylesheet modularization based on the Local/Global 
> decision that practically every element would have a unique type in 
> order to support database applications and other type-based systems, 
> including the yet to be standardized XSLT/XPath 2.0 family of 
> standards based on W3C Schema.
> XSLT/XPath 1.0 are not based on W3C Schema but are based on XML and 
> Namespaces, thus being a "pure" XML application of label-based 
> processing.  This is what 0.70 was based on and what I was hoping to 
> base 0.80 on.
> In discussions with Eduardo, I gathered that the 0.70 practice of:
>   <xsd:element name="BuyerParty" type="cat:PartyType" />
>   <xsd:element name="FreightForwarderParty" type="cat:PartyType" />
> which would produce a common set of labels as defined by the single 
> PartyType for the components of the parties, was being abandoned.  I 
> understood that the global/local decision would produce unique types 
> for each label (with the documented exception of @ID and @CODE) with 
> results along the lines of (modulo namespaces):
>   <xsd:element name="BuyerParty" type="cat:BuyerPartyPartyType" />
>   <xsd:element name="FreightForwarderParty"
>                type="cat:FreightForwarderPartyType" />
> ... thus requiring me to abandon my 0.70 approach to modularization 
> and start from scratch redesigning my XSLT/XPath 1.0 stylesheets to be 
> type-based and not label-based.
> I can accept this decision since I had my opportunity to voice my 
> opposition (though surprisingly to me in London I was ruled out of 
> order expressing the issue as it was deemed irrelevant to the 
> discussion).
> When the 0.80 draft 3 schemas arrived this week, I was surprised to 
> see common types being used in the same pattern as was used in 0.70 
> which I documented here:
>   http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-lcsc/200306/msg00052.html
> For some reason I do not see in the archives the following response 
> that I received from Chee-Kai, even though LCSC is cc'ed on it:
>> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:52:56 +0800 (SGT)
>> From: Chin Chee Kai <cheekai@StanfordAlumni.org>
>> To: "G. Ken Holman" <gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com>
>> cc: UBL LCSC <ubl-lcsc@lists.oasis-open.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ubl-lcsc] Agenda the next meeting of the UBL Library  
>> Content subcommittee to be held on TUESDAY 24th June between 8 and  
>> 10a.m  California time
>> This isn't so much of a global/local issue than a type-reuse issue.
>> The type-reuse mechanism (what you described as "single type
>> for all parties") was carried over from the 0.80 spreadsheets'
>> model change to reuse more types that are literally exact
>> copies with different names when they were in 0.70 (as you
>> pointed out).  I think there was no position change from
>> the London meeting on encouraging type-reuse.
>> Hope this helps.
>> Best Regards,
>> Chin Chee-Kai
>> SoftML
> In response to the above note, I started a thread attempting to 
> clarify the issue, because his final sentence is the *opposite* of 
> what I remember from the London meeting:
>   http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-lcsc/200306/msg00054.html
> Chee-Kai's response echoed for me what were many of my own arguments 
> in London against the changes I perceived were happening:
>   http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-lcsc/200306/msg00056.html
> I summarized my London misconceptions in the new light of Chee-Kai's 
> explications and concluded my thread here:
>   http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ubl-lcsc/200306/msg00058.html
> My objective in bringing this up in the CSC meeting was to (1) 
> apologize to Jon and others in UBL for my technical arguments in 
> London being unfounded, (2) I was hoping that Eduardo would have been 
> at the meeting in order to raise in discussion his points to me in 
> London that led me to conclude the opposite of what Chee-Kai has been 
> reflecting in the schema expressions, thus perhaps helping others who 
> heard our arguments in London better understand what is going on, and 
> (3) ask what documents would give me a better summary of the 
> local/global issues as applied to UBL so I can be in a better position 
> to describe the issue to others.
> Not being a member or lurker of NDRSC I didn't track the discussions 
> on the fly and so was hoping there might be a summary document 
> somewhere I can cite in my descriptions of the situation.
> So, it would seem that my FPSC 0.80 work is a lot more progressed than 
> I thought it would be now that I can base a lot of the work on my 0.70 
> results, and I can progress the critical path of FPSC with the Draft 3 
> schemas as delivered by Chee-Kai.
> I apologize for my confusion and I hope the above has helped others.  
> Thanks for your patience with me.
> ..................... Ken
> -- 
> Upcoming hands-on courses: XSLT/XPath North America: Aug 12, 2003
> -                          XSL-FO     North America: Aug  4, 2003
> G. Ken Holman                mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
> Crane Softwrights Ltd.         http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/o/
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> You may leave a Technical Committee at any time by visiting 
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Eduardo Gutentag               |         e-mail: eduardo.gutentag@Sun.COM
Web Technologies and Standards |         Phone:  +1 510 550 4616 x31442
Sun Microsystems Inc.          |         
W3C AC Rep / OASIS TAB Chair

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