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Subject: Re: [ubl-dev] UBL Adoption Group?


Hi Stephen,

> Hi Roberto
>
> I think you got misunderstood a bit and I'm sure you were
> just toying / brainstorming with what a conformance
> test bed would be like - not offering to get involved in
> making one.

It was not my intention, just a desire, also my free time is really
limited to few hours a day, this reason I am mainly focused to software
production.

>
> I think that is very much a valid exercise - just to first
> consider what conformance testing of profiles would entail.
> The point is not so that we actually do testing - there are
> businesses who specialise in that and it's no problem if it
> isn't our particular interest.
>
> What the exercise is about is first considering the outcome
> of creating conformance-oriented profile specs before
> deciding whether there would be viability in doing it. I
> personally accept that voluntary contributors to such
> efforts (and voluntary contribution does go hand-in-hand
> with royalty-free initiatives) are rightfully accompanied by
> the freedom to agree or disagree your work and priorities.

Sorry I will be not of help for this, as explained above.

>
> Your excellent substantial contributions to UBL and your
> equally substantial work in implementing it in UBL Swinger
> should be better and more widely recognised I reckon.

I thank you very much.

Who knows about the future ?

>
> All the best
>
> Stephen Greeb
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Stephen Green
>
> Senior IT Officer
> Bristol City Council
> Room G34, Romney House
> Romney Avenue
> Bristol  BS99 3HB
> Tel: 0117 922 3794
> Fax: 0117 922 4877
> Email: stephen_green@bristol.gov.uk
>
>
>
>>>> <roberto@javest.com> 25/05/07 15:05 >>>
> Hello David,
> the idea I described is a little different.
>
> I am not talking about a specific technology, API or engine to use with
> UBL.
>
> I supposed there should be such a public service exposed using WS and/or
> ebXML to let anyone "test" online its UBL environment/system/application
> with certified xml instances based on a set of downloadable customized XSD
> schemas representing all the main use case of UBL
> subsetting/profiling/derivation/extension.
>
> Something like this:
>
> Test Environment Public WebSite
> |
> +----- Downloadable Subset Sample (XSD bundle)
> +----- Downloadable Profiled Subset Sample (XSD bundle)
> +----- Downloadable XSD Derivation Customization Sample (XSD bundle)
> +----- Downloadable UBL Extensions Customization Sample (XSD bundle)
> |
> +----- Web Service / ebXML to receive an UBL instance based on each of the
> previous customization cases.
>
> Vendor Software
> |
> +----- Setup a WS or ebXML environment
> +----- Setup their UBL solution using a customization test (XSD bundle)
> +----- Receive an UBL instance from the public test environment
> +----- Send back an ApplicationResponse with results
>
> or a better conformancy test could be:
>
> - Receive a Quotation
> - Send back an Order with all items available into the Quotation
>
> The Vendor is not constrained to use JCam or another specific technology,
> this is just an UBL Conformance Test (like the validation services
> available at the W3C website).
>
> Of course this could be made in a simpler way by sending just an e-mail
> with an UBL attachment...
>
> Maybe such conformancy test public service could be made together the
> ebXML TC.
>
> It is just a brain storming...
>
> Have a nice week-end David.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Roberto Cisternino
> co-chair
> UBL ITLSC
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Roberto,
>
> What you are suggesting here is entirely enabled with the CAM
> specification and jCAM engine.
>
> <snip>Then if a software, driver, engine, ... will be able to pass all
>  published interop tests, it could be elegible to show an "UBL Conformant"
> Logo on
>  their software as quality symbol.
> </snip>
>
> I'm not sure about this "UBL Inside" logo though - probably take you more
> time to decide on the design and artwork and have that approved than to
> write the CAM templates for the software.
>
>  ; -)
>
> DW
>
> "The way to be is to do" - Confucius (551-472 B.C.)
>
>
>  ---------------------------- Original Message
> ----------------------------
>  Subject: Re: [ubl-dev] UBL Adoption Group?
>  From: roberto@javest.com
>  Date: Fri, May 25, 2007 10:47 am
>  To: "Stephen Green" <stephen.green@bristol.gov.uk>
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Hi Stephen,
>
>  I see, you are right UBL is really more than EDI, this is because of XML
>  family of standards used (e.g. an XSLT definition is a piece of a
>  controller)
>
>  The logic to accept or skip an incoming message could be located into
>  many places:
>
>  1) Expressed using XML (like schematron or as a result of a pipeline of
>  validations).
>  2) hard coded client-side using Javascript
>  3) hard coded server-side using JSP/Servlet/PHP/ASP
>
>  Whatever a software house will choose the "right" way or not, I think an
>  interoperability test could be as simple as providing a set of UBL
>  instances and XSDs that sufficiently cover the main set of customization
>  use cases (subsetting, profiling, derivation, extensions) for the purpose
>  of a "public" interop test (available as WS or ebXML service).
>
>  Then if a software, driver, engine, ... will be able to pass all
>  published interop tests, it could be elegible to show an "UBL Conformant"
> Logo on
>  their software as quality symbol.
>
>  I put some fantasy here, but I think is not a so bad idea, what you think
>  about ?
>
>  Regards,
>
>  Roberto Cisternino
>
>  > Good morning Roberto
>  >
>  > Interesting point. What, then, about standards or test assertions
>  related to the 'controller'? I guess this gets to the point in an
>  interesting way: UBL was mostly about standardising the 'model'
>  > if you think of things as MVC. But was it really? UBL is by name:
>  >
>  > 1. universal - it is not just for Europe
>  > 2. for business - it has to provide what is needed to conduct business
>  (universally)
>  > 3. a language - it has to make sense equally not just to the sender
>  ('speaker') but to the receiver too
>  > (and they are likely to be on different continents - why else would
>  they
>  be interested in UBL)
>  >
>  > For this to all be so it has to include more than just model.
>  >
>  > Sure, it includes a model and provides a model to a document
>  >
>  > But the document it the focus (for conducting business B2B) and not the
>  application which uses it. So as a document it is more than data and
>  structure,
>  > it is logic and function too. These aspects have to work and they have
>  to work
>  > universally.
>  >
>  > Interesting discussion. To me this what I'm trying in SystML to further
>  and follow
>  > through but a key part of that (as other early adopting * customers
>  * of
>  UBL
>  > tended to agree) is identification of a 'core', due to the size and
>  complexity which
>  > has been for some a real barrier. Once that core is identified, and
>  what
>  I'm getting
>  > from yourself, Roberto, is that the core is not just model but
>  controller too (and
>  > Ken would add 'view too' from the perspective of writing human
>  interface
>  stylesheets),
>  > then there are further steps to take, which is what I get from Tim's
>  comments.
>  > In SystML I'd like to ensure that the core is identified without losing
>  the 'universal'
>  > aspect of UBL - not allwoing it to be just a core for a 'european
>  business language'
>  > which would negate its true distinctive value. So catering for
>  S.American, N.American,
>  > Middle Eastern, Carribean, South East Asian, ... global
>  requirements is
>  what UBL set
>  > out to do and I think the time has come to make moves to fulfill that
>  goal; perhaps
>  > applying relevant aspects of lessons learned in Europe and Asia, yes.
>  >
>  > A way other standards-related efforts have well-proven for this purpose
>  is through
>  > globally scoped profiling efforts - first identify a core then provide
>  profiles for more
>  > specific things (in this case localisation and vertical customisation).
>  The SBS was an
>  > initial effort for UBL 1.0. Maybe it will do the core identification
>  for
>  2.0. I'm just thinking
>  > about there being an umbrella now for this like was originally strongly
>  suggested for
>  > the SBS - some said create another TC for it or Adoption TC. That was
>  too expensive
>  > then. Plus now there is the option of a Member Section which seems most
>  relevant.
>  > I remember our CEO even asked for us to do it back then. Maybe now is
>  the time.
>  >
>  > Many thanks for weedling this out of me.
>  >
>  > All the best
>  >
>  > Steve
>  >
>  >
>  > ------------------------------------------------------------
>  > Stephen Green
>  >
>  > Senior IT Officer
>  > Bristol City Council
>  > Room G34, Romney House
>  > Romney Avenue
>  > Bristol BS99 3HB
>  > Tel: 0117 922 3794
>  > Fax: 0117 922 4877
>  > Email: stephen_green@bristol.gov.uk
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >>>> <roberto@javest.com> 25/05/07 06:50 >>>
>  > ...
>  >> conflicting concepts of minor aspects of the various subsets. There
>  could,
>  >> for instance, be some subsets which disallow non-subset data and
>  others
>  which
>  >> tolerate it with some qualifications (like the 'must understand'
>  versus
>  'can ignore' principles). These approaches haven't been aligned so
>  there are chances for conflicting systems which could probably be
>  avoided with a
>  >> seeking of a common understanding and formalised approach.
>  >
>  > Mmm... as a developer I think such tolerance is not the task of UBL
>  in a
>  MVC paradigm, as the "Controller" should take care of this.
>  > The reason is an XML based system MUST NOT ignore validations
>  expecially
>  the 1st structural/lexical step (XSD) otherwise we return back to HTML.
>  >
>  > A tolerant system should use a filter befor validate (as proposed by
>  KH)
>  or just block the incoming instance and let the user to design a
>  specific mapping to import it (an EDI practise).
>  >
>  > ______________________________________________________________________
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>  >
>  >
>  >
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>  >
>
>
>  Roberto Cisternino
>
>
>
>  Roberto Cisternino
>
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> information at: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/newsdirect
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>
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> ______________________________________________________________________
> Please note the new simpler name for our website:
> http://www.bristol.gov.uk
>
> Our email addresses have also changed - visit
> http://www.bristol.gov.uk/bigchange for further details.
>
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Roberto Cisternino


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