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Subject: Re: [ubl-dev] UBL Adoption Group?
Hi Stephen, > Hi Roberto > > I think you got misunderstood a bit and I'm sure you were > just toying / brainstorming with what a conformance > test bed would be like - not offering to get involved in > making one. It was not my intention, just a desire, also my free time is really limited to few hours a day, this reason I am mainly focused to software production. > > I think that is very much a valid exercise - just to first > consider what conformance testing of profiles would entail. > The point is not so that we actually do testing - there are > businesses who specialise in that and it's no problem if it > isn't our particular interest. > > What the exercise is about is first considering the outcome > of creating conformance-oriented profile specs before > deciding whether there would be viability in doing it. I > personally accept that voluntary contributors to such > efforts (and voluntary contribution does go hand-in-hand > with royalty-free initiatives) are rightfully accompanied by > the freedom to agree or disagree your work and priorities. Sorry I will be not of help for this, as explained above. > > Your excellent substantial contributions to UBL and your > equally substantial work in implementing it in UBL Swinger > should be better and more widely recognised I reckon. I thank you very much. Who knows about the future ? > > All the best > > Stephen Greeb > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Stephen Green > > Senior IT Officer > Bristol City Council > Room G34, Romney House > Romney Avenue > Bristol BS99 3HB > Tel: 0117 922 3794 > Fax: 0117 922 4877 > Email: stephen_green@bristol.gov.uk > > > >>>> <roberto@javest.com> 25/05/07 15:05 >>> > Hello David, > the idea I described is a little different. > > I am not talking about a specific technology, API or engine to use with > UBL. > > I supposed there should be such a public service exposed using WS and/or > ebXML to let anyone "test" online its UBL environment/system/application > with certified xml instances based on a set of downloadable customized XSD > schemas representing all the main use case of UBL > subsetting/profiling/derivation/extension. > > Something like this: > > Test Environment Public WebSite > | > +----- Downloadable Subset Sample (XSD bundle) > +----- Downloadable Profiled Subset Sample (XSD bundle) > +----- Downloadable XSD Derivation Customization Sample (XSD bundle) > +----- Downloadable UBL Extensions Customization Sample (XSD bundle) > | > +----- Web Service / ebXML to receive an UBL instance based on each of the > previous customization cases. > > Vendor Software > | > +----- Setup a WS or ebXML environment > +----- Setup their UBL solution using a customization test (XSD bundle) > +----- Receive an UBL instance from the public test environment > +----- Send back an ApplicationResponse with results > > or a better conformancy test could be: > > - Receive a Quotation > - Send back an Order with all items available into the Quotation > > The Vendor is not constrained to use JCam or another specific technology, > this is just an UBL Conformance Test (like the validation services > available at the W3C website). > > Of course this could be made in a simpler way by sending just an e-mail > with an UBL attachment... > > Maybe such conformancy test public service could be made together the > ebXML TC. > > It is just a brain storming... > > Have a nice week-end David. > > Best Regards, > > Roberto Cisternino > co-chair > UBL ITLSC > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Roberto, > > What you are suggesting here is entirely enabled with the CAM > specification and jCAM engine. > > <snip>Then if a software, driver, engine, ... will be able to pass all > published interop tests, it could be elegible to show an "UBL Conformant" > Logo on > their software as quality symbol. > </snip> > > I'm not sure about this "UBL Inside" logo though - probably take you more > time to decide on the design and artwork and have that approved than to > write the CAM templates for the software. > > ; -) > > DW > > "The way to be is to do" - Confucius (551-472 B.C.) > > > ---------------------------- Original Message > ---------------------------- > Subject: Re: [ubl-dev] UBL Adoption Group? > From: roberto@javest.com > Date: Fri, May 25, 2007 10:47 am > To: "Stephen Green" <stephen.green@bristol.gov.uk> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Stephen, > > I see, you are right UBL is really more than EDI, this is because of XML > family of standards used (e.g. an XSLT definition is a piece of a > controller) > > The logic to accept or skip an incoming message could be located into > many places: > > 1) Expressed using XML (like schematron or as a result of a pipeline of > validations). > 2) hard coded client-side using Javascript > 3) hard coded server-side using JSP/Servlet/PHP/ASP > > Whatever a software house will choose the "right" way or not, I think an > interoperability test could be as simple as providing a set of UBL > instances and XSDs that sufficiently cover the main set of customization > use cases (subsetting, profiling, derivation, extensions) for the purpose > of a "public" interop test (available as WS or ebXML service). > > Then if a software, driver, engine, ... will be able to pass all > published interop tests, it could be elegible to show an "UBL Conformant" > Logo on > their software as quality symbol. > > I put some fantasy here, but I think is not a so bad idea, what you think > about ? > > Regards, > > Roberto Cisternino > > > Good morning Roberto > > > > Interesting point. What, then, about standards or test assertions > related to the 'controller'? I guess this gets to the point in an > interesting way: UBL was mostly about standardising the 'model' > > if you think of things as MVC. But was it really? UBL is by name: > > > > 1. universal - it is not just for Europe > > 2. for business - it has to provide what is needed to conduct business > (universally) > > 3. a language - it has to make sense equally not just to the sender > ('speaker') but to the receiver too > > (and they are likely to be on different continents - why else would > they > be interested in UBL) > > > > For this to all be so it has to include more than just model. > > > > Sure, it includes a model and provides a model to a document > > > > But the document it the focus (for conducting business B2B) and not the > application which uses it. So as a document it is more than data and > structure, > > it is logic and function too. These aspects have to work and they have > to work > > universally. > > > > Interesting discussion. To me this what I'm trying in SystML to further > and follow > > through but a key part of that (as other early adopting * customers > * of > UBL > > tended to agree) is identification of a 'core', due to the size and > complexity which > > has been for some a real barrier. Once that core is identified, and > what > I'm getting > > from yourself, Roberto, is that the core is not just model but > controller too (and > > Ken would add 'view too' from the perspective of writing human > interface > stylesheets), > > then there are further steps to take, which is what I get from Tim's > comments. > > In SystML I'd like to ensure that the core is identified without losing > the 'universal' > > aspect of UBL - not allwoing it to be just a core for a 'european > business language' > > which would negate its true distinctive value. So catering for > S.American, N.American, > > Middle Eastern, Carribean, South East Asian, ... global > requirements is > what UBL set > > out to do and I think the time has come to make moves to fulfill that > goal; perhaps > > applying relevant aspects of lessons learned in Europe and Asia, yes. > > > > A way other standards-related efforts have well-proven for this purpose > is through > > globally scoped profiling efforts - first identify a core then provide > profiles for more > > specific things (in this case localisation and vertical customisation). > The SBS was an > > initial effort for UBL 1.0. Maybe it will do the core identification > for > 2.0. I'm just thinking > > about there being an umbrella now for this like was originally strongly > suggested for > > the SBS - some said create another TC for it or Adoption TC. That was > too expensive > > then. Plus now there is the option of a Member Section which seems most > relevant. > > I remember our CEO even asked for us to do it back then. Maybe now is > the time. > > > > Many thanks for weedling this out of me. > > > > All the best > > > > Steve > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Stephen Green > > > > Senior IT Officer > > Bristol City Council > > Room G34, Romney House > > Romney Avenue > > Bristol BS99 3HB > > Tel: 0117 922 3794 > > Fax: 0117 922 4877 > > Email: stephen_green@bristol.gov.uk > > > > > > > >>>> <roberto@javest.com> 25/05/07 06:50 >>> > > ... > >> conflicting concepts of minor aspects of the various subsets. There > could, > >> for instance, be some subsets which disallow non-subset data and > others > which > >> tolerate it with some qualifications (like the 'must understand' > versus > 'can ignore' principles). These approaches haven't been aligned so > there are chances for conflicting systems which could probably be > avoided with a > >> seeking of a common understanding and formalised approach. > > > > Mmm... as a developer I think such tolerance is not the task of UBL > in a > MVC paradigm, as the "Controller" should take care of this. > > The reason is an XML based system MUST NOT ignore validations > expecially > the 1st structural/lexical step (XSD) otherwise we return back to HTML. > > > > A tolerant system should use a filter befor validate (as proposed by > KH) > or just block the incoming instance and let the user to design a > specific mapping to import it (an EDI practise). > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please note the new simpler name for our website: > > http://www.bristol.gov.uk > > > > Our email addresses have also changed - visit > > http://www.bristol.gov.uk/bigchange for further details. > > > > Sign-up for our email bulletin giving news, have-your-say and event > information at: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/newsdirect > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To > unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org For > additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > > > Roberto Cisternino > > > > Roberto Cisternino > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > For additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > For additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > For additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please note the new simpler name for our website: > http://www.bristol.gov.uk > > Our email addresses have also changed - visit > http://www.bristol.gov.uk/bigchange for further details. > > Sign-up for our email bulletin giving news, have-your-say and event > information at: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/newsdirect > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please note the new simpler name for our website: > http://www.bristol.gov.uk > > Our email addresses have also changed - visit > http://www.bristol.gov.uk/bigchange for further details. > > Sign-up for our email bulletin giving news, have-your-say and event > information at: http://www.bristol.gov.uk/newsdirect > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: ubl-dev-unsubscribe@lists.oasis-open.org > For additional commands, e-mail: ubl-dev-help@lists.oasis-open.org > > Roberto Cisternino
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