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Subject: Re: [ubl-dev] UBL and ISO 20022 mapping
Hi Tim,
I find the FinancialInvoice published together other ISO20022 standard
models.
Under "ISO 20022 Trade Services message definitions":
http://www.iso20022.org/trade_services_messages.page
It has been submitted by UN/CEFACT TBG5.
About TC 154 I think it is in charge for trade standards while TC 68 is
for financial standards.
ISO20022 is under TC 68
Invoice standards should be under ISO TC 154, if any... I think.
I just noted the Invoice is a "trade" document and is misplaced in ISO20022.
Cheers,
Roberto
> without wishing to be too picky we should get the terminology correct to
> avoid misunderstandings.
>
> there is no such thing as an "ISO 20022 Invoice". There is a Financial
> Invoice message definition created using ISO 20022 methodology and
> library by a community of users from the finance sector. It was not
> created or approved by ISO/TC 68. It is important to understand that
> the methodology and library are the ISO 20022 standard NOT the message
> definitions.
>
> what has happened is that the Financial Invoice message definition has
> been published by the ISO 20022 Registration Authority (RA) - operated
> by S.W.I.F.T. (http://www.iso20022.org/trade_services_messages.page)
>
> so lets stop staying "ISO 20022 Invoice" - it suggests something it is
> not. A more correct title is "Financial Invoice message definition based
> on ISO 20022".
>
>
> PS.
> ISO/TC 154 has never published a Invoice document standard of any type.
> I am not sure what you are referring to there.
>
>
> On 7/08/12 5:40 PM, Roberto Cisternino wrote:
>> Hello Marcel,
>> the fact the ISO invoice is a subset of CII is in line with my assertion
>>
>>> The young ISO20022 invoice is a banking thing thousand miles from real
>>> invoice needs around the globe.
>> So the banking sector seems to be interested to a subset of the
>> e-invoicing market :)
>>
>> Also please note the overlapping between ISO TC 68 and TC 154 as the
>> Invoice IS a Commercial business document not a financial one.
>>
>> Banking is only committed to earn money and not strictly interested on
>> interoperability achievements.
>>
>> They still miss the origin of the Invoice (Quotation, PO, ...) so they
>> are
>> also breaking several simplifications provided by using a consistent set
>> of business documents like Universal Business Language.
>>
>> I am still convinced the way is the *complementary* use of trade
>> standards
>> with financial standards (UBL-ISO20022) because they are best-in-class
>> on
>> their respective kernels and there is no reason to OVERLAP.
>>
>> It is the history... EDIFACT was a pool of several messages coming from
>> different kernels... but the time has demonstrated the need of more
>> specialized (advanced) kernels for Trade, Finance, Customs, Health, ...
>>
>> We do not have to come back to a unique standard just because it is
>> called
>> ISO20022.
>>
>> This is my opinion,
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Roberto Cisternino, JAVEST
>>
>>> Hello Roberto,
>>>
>>> many thanks for your mail and your time.
>>>
>>> Am 03.08.2012 17:14, schrieb Roberto Cisternino:
>>>> Hello Marcel,
>>>>
>>>> for an ontology that is mapping UBL with other standards you could
>>>> review the OASIS SET TC and their deliverables.
>>> Thanks, I'll have a look.
>>>> UBL 2.0 and CII 2.0 can be mapped through the CCTS semantic
>>>> annotations available into their XSDs, but I have nothing ready for
>>>> this.
>>>> There have been several attempts to make a gap analysis or map between
>>>> these formats but a real and precise XPATH map is not available I
>>>> think.
>>> Sorry, I made a little mistake, what I meant to say is ISO 20022 and
>>> CII
>>> V2 mapping.
>>>
>>>> ISO 20022 : eFinance = UBL : eBusiness
>>> I know that the invoices are different, but I think (I hope) they have
>>> a
>>> similarly subset. The main focus from my work is on the kinds of
>>> transformation and secondary of the standards.
>>>
>>>> The upcoming UBL 2.1 can be used together ISO 20022 for end-to-end
>>>> Financial Supply Chain applications in a complementary way, but they
>>>> are different kernels.
>>>>
>>>> The young ISO20022 invoice is a banking thing thousand miles from real
>>>> invoice needs around the globe.
>>> Too bad, I had the hope that anyone have done this before. Because
>>> ISO20022 said that the ISO-invoice based on CII v2 data model. (See
>>> summer 2011 http://www.iso20022.org/newsletter_archive.page)
>>>> Semantically ISO20022 and UBL are very different as they come from
>>>> different repositories. UBL is an excellent ISO15000-5 (CCTS)
>>>> implementation and its bricks are harmonized and persisted in the
>>>> UN/CCL library.
>>>>
>>>> The "CII" Invoice is a different assembly of the UN/CCL semantic
>>>> bricks, but I think UBL has a better structure. (two different walls
>>>> made up several common bricks).
>>>>
>>>> CII is more a semantic work used to fit the European requirements but
>>>> it can be implemented using any other CCTS-based language like UBL,
>>>> GS1, CDX, PDX, ...
>>>> It could be more hard to map other proprietary formats, EDIFACT, so
>>>> on...
>>>> UBL 2.0 Invoice is compatible with the core CII set requested by EU.
>>>>
>>>> I would suggest to keep your eyes on the European e-procurement
>>>> project named "PEPPOL", that is an implementation of the CEN WS/BII
>>>> Abstract model for e-procurement using the UBL 2.0 syntax.
>>>>
>>>> PEPPOL implements the core invoice model described by CEN-BII.
>>>>
>>>> You will note these days that the shift is provided by using mature
>>>> XML languages for business like UBL, that can be easely customized
>>>> (reduced) and profiled to fit several industry needs.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to present you an analogy with the past:
>>>>
>>>> *Standard Syntax* *Standard Abstract Profiles* *User Group
>>>> Implementations*
>>>> UN/EDIFACT
>>>> none EANCOM, SMDG, ITIGG, ...
>>>> UBL *CEN/WS BII* *PEPPOL*
>>>> CII CII ???
>>>> ISO-20022 none EPC, CGI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As you note both CEN-BII and CII are abstract models that are
>>>> implemented through user groups.
>>> And again, many thanks for your mail. Can I use your mail or some
>>> quotes
>>> for my work?
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Marcel Trawny
>>>
>>>> Hope this is of any help.
>>>>
>>>> Roberto Cisternino, JAVEST
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> i am writing my diploma thesis about transformation (XSD and
>>>>> ontology)
>>>>> of invoice documents, especially UBL and IS0 20022. Unfortunately, my
>>>>> domain knowledge about the invoice domain is insufficiently. Have
>>>>> anybody a mapping for the both standards for me or perhaps a mapping
>>>> for
>>>>> UBL and CII V2.0?
>>>>>
>>>>> I am eternally in your debt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Marcel
>>>>> **
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> * JAVEST by Roberto Cisternino
>>>> *
>>>> * Document Engineering Services Ltd. - Alliance Member
>>>> * UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair
>>>> * UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org)
>>>> * Italian UBL Advisor
>>>>
>>>> Roberto Cisternino
>>>>
>>>> mobile: +39 328 2148123
>>>> skype: roberto.cisternino.ubl-itlsc
>>>>
>>>> [UBL Technical Committee]
>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl
>>>>
>>>> [UBL Online Community]
>>>> http://ubl.xml.org
>>>>
>>>> [UBL International Conferences]
>>>> http://www.ublconference.org
>>>>
>>>> [UBL Italian Localization Subcommittee]
>>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl-itlsc
>>>>
>>>> [Iniziativa divulgativa UBL Italia]
>>>> http://www.ubl-italia.org
>>>
>>
>
>
>
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--
* JAVEST by Roberto Cisternino
*
* Document Engineering Services Ltd. - Alliance Member
* UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair
* UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org)
* Italian UBL Advisor
Roberto Cisternino
mobile: +39 328 2148123
skype: roberto.cisternino.ubl-itlsc
[UBL Technical Committee]
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl
[UBL Online Community]
http://ubl.xml.org
[UBL International Conferences]
http://www.ublconference.org
[UBL Italian Localization Subcommittee]
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl-itlsc
[Iniziativa divulgativa UBL Italia]
http://www.ubl-italia.org
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