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Subject: Re: [ubl-lcsc] Agenda for UBL LCSC meeting on Tuesday April 16th at07:00am California time NB the new call time is in effect!

Hi again!

Apologies that the first attempt seems to have given problems with the
attached file. I will try instead to paste the main 'meat' of the text
into the e-mail itself, although this might lose some of its

These are some of the interdependencies between data that we
encountered in Finance messages. I know that these are equally true in
areas other than Finance, and there may well be more different
manifestations. I hope that the ones I have noted will act as a spur for
other people to think and send their own observations and examples about
what is needed.




Different Types of Situation

1.  Specific type of document requiring references to prior

	Need to be able to declare that certain pieces of information
are required, others are optional, dependent on the precise
nature/type/kind of the message. *Nature* in this sense  may be a
subtle subdivision of the message that we actually define. We may have
one order message but several *kinds*of order

e.g. - call off order must have a reference to the establishing order

e.g. - authorised direct debit must have references to the
mandate(debtor*s authorisation to the bank) and contract (creditor*s
contract with the bank)

2.  Combinations of information

Need to be able to declare the dependency between pieces of
i.e. if I have A then I must have B and C, 
      if I have A then I must have B and I can have C and/or D
      if I have A then I must have B but I cannot have C

e.g. - the equivalent amount must have target and source currencies
together with a currency exchange rate (currency rate base?)

3.  Choice

3a  Exclusive, i.e. you can only have one of the options

Need to be able to declare a list of pieces of information and say
that, in any one occurrence of the message, only one of the listed
pieces can be specified.  

e.g. - the amount in a payment order is one of two possibilities, the
Amount Due/Payable, or the Equivalent Amount.
e.g. - bank is identified by either a BIC code, by a national bank
identification scheme, or by a combination of  a national bank and
branch identification scheme (bank sort code in the UK) If there is no
national identification scheme then the bank is identified by name and
place (note this is disallowed in EDIFACT MIGs
e.g. - a party is identified either by a Party Id. from some recognised
scheme or else by a name and address

3b Inclusive, i.e. you can have one or more of these options.

Need to be able to declare a list of pieces of information and identify
the pieces that must, or can, appear in any one occurrence of the

e.g. - in a statement of account, you can have a number of differently
named balances or totals, such as an Accrued Credit Interest Balance and
a Balance to be Confirmed, but you must have an Opening Balance and a
Closing Balance.

4.  One of a List

Need to be able to declare a list of indication values that an
indicator may take, in any one occurrence of the indicator within the
message. (Note that this is probably just an enumerated list in XML

e.g. - the geographic environment in which a payment takes place is
identified as one of five possible values, which are Domestic without
Regulatory Reporting, Domestic with Regulatory Reporting, International
without Regulatory Reporting, International with Regulatory Reporting,
and European to ECBS Rules.

e.g. - the responsibility for settling charges is identified as one of
three possible values, which are All Borne by Ordering Customer (Payer),
Each Pays Their Own, All Borne by Beneficiary (Payee)
5.  Interaction between Information 

Need to be able to declare whether information specified at one level
of a message is complementary to, or a replacement for, similar
information at different  level in the message.
Need also to be able to specify the sequence in which discounts, given
for different reasons, must be applied. (Not 100% sure about this one if
the end result is the same. However it may be necessary if one is
subject to VAT and one is not. The sequence may be dictated by the tax
authority, for example

e.g. - to indicate whether a discount specified at the order header
level overrides a discount specified at the item line level, or whether
it is another discount *on top of* the individual item line
e.g. - to indicate that a normal trade discount is calculated before a
special delivery charge is applied, or whatever.

---end quote---

Note that there is a bit more that I included, but it's a table and I
need to do some more work on it.

Mike Adcock
Standards & Security Unit
APACS - Association for Payment Clearing Services
Mercury House, Triton Court
14 Finsbury Square
London EC2A 1LQ
Tel: +44 (0) 20 7711 6318
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7711 6299
e-mail: michael.adcock@apacs.org.uk

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