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Subject: RE: [ubl-lcsc] Re: Position Paper on List Containers
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003, A Gregory wrote: >>While I agree with much of what you say about looking forward, I must >>disagree that we can ignore totally ubiquitous tools such as Internet >>Explorer. Don't use the 4 container rule's means "ignore totally ubiquitous tools such as Internet Explorer"??? I find your argument stretching the limits of imagination. Each message is already a container (with business meaning). Due to the probably sensible use of global element/type (ok, Gunther might strongly disagree), each such element within is again (forced to be) a container of sort (with a meanings attached). There's no argument against "containers" per se, but the meaningless containers that the 4 container rules require. They're also ill-defined as to give name clashes and, the way they are stated, are at most ambiguous in design. There's no "disadvantage" or problems about those lists as shown in the paper. But they have not brought out any advantage as claimed without proof. Show some proof of efficiency. I can change my mind if the numbers argue for themselves. And, if you argue based on subjective assessment of elegance, there's not much room for discussion except you can win if you happen to yell louder by quoting names. Sorry, but I shall stop responding to arguments based on "this container view is better than that", because there's not much value I can add to subjective views of elegance and prettiness. >>Most people in my experience do use IE5.* or 6 to browse XML >>because it provides a collapsible view that many text editors do not. >>Also, the existence of collapsible tree-view and folder-based >>hierarchies in XML editing tools and document management systems is very >>common. No disagreement there. That's looking at XML in general, not looking at UBL-specific implementation. By that reasoning, all XML documents should have containers otherwise they're "ignoring totally ubiquitous tools such as Internet Explorer"???? There're benefits of folding/collapsing tree-views. At least when browsing UBL instances as they are now (with or without containers), the feature is very handy. But when you do that for the sake of doing that (as in implementing those meaningless containers for the sake of folding), and force the other side effects to start creeping quietly into other areas, then a simple argument of not "ignoring totally ubiquitous tools such as Internet Explorer" is not sufficent a reason. >>(Jon's arguments about readability stands, if only because the IE is an >>example of a much more common UI behavior around XML.) If you design a model for the sake of UI, how sensible is that is left to people at large to judge. Like I said, to each his/her view, and I won't attempt to change yours. You probably feel strongly in your views about the issues as I do. We have both spoken. Best Regards, Chin Chee-Kai SoftML Tel: +65-6820-2979 Fax: +65-6743-7875 Email: cheekai@SoftML.Net http://SoftML.Net/
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