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Subject: Re: [ubl] How does an OrderResponse show orderacceptance/rejection?

Title: Re: [ubl] How does an OrderResponse show order acceptance/rejection?
In my opinion

  1. we must not think that acknowledgement and acceptance are synonymous.
  2. we should not put an accepted/rejected indicator in the Order Response header; it’s a line level document and the detail is expressed at line level.
  3. if someone wants to be ‘simple’, the should use the Order Response Simple for as long as we have it.
  4. the proper Order Response is a direct reflection of the Order itself
    1. complete acceptance of the Order comprises direct reflection of all of the Order Lines in the Response
    2. changes to any of the lines will be reflected on the lines, be they changes of amounts, dates, substitute items etc.
    3. rejection of the line would be a reflection of the line with the quantity changed to zero and no substitute item.
      • we could put an accept/reject indicator on the line, but how would a change of delivery date or item substitution be indicated ?

The Order Response should be seen as a complete acceptance if all the details are the same as the Order or a counter offer if they are not.

Regards, M

Mark Leitch

From: Tim McGrath <tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au>
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:38:36 +0800
To: Stephen Green <stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk>
Cc: <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>, <ubl@lists.oasis-open.org>, <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>
Subject: Re: [ubl] How does an OrderResponse show order acceptance/rejection?

I agree this is a meaningful and beneficial issue to discuss, especially at this stage in UBL 2.0 development.

At this stage no-one is proposing changing the Order Response Simple in UBL 2.0 - at least with regard to the AcceptedIndicator (we are proposing additional document references as an extension).  So the issue you describe will remain with UBL 2.0.

It does seem that allowing the Buyer Party to specify which type of response they get is illogical.  But that isn't what we meant. What we were trying to do was indicate what the Buyer Party was capable of receiving automatically.  If they say Order Response Simple and they are sent an Order Response they won't be able to process it.

It is (and should be) the Seller Party who will decide whether to reject the Order, accept it as is or accept it with proposed changes. But currently, (in UBL 1.0) if the Buyer Party says they want an Order Response document then the Seller Party cannot (easily) indicate they reject the Order.  Likewise, if the Buyer requests an Order Response Simple the Seller cannot (using UBL) propose modifications to the Order. They would have to do this using another form of document (eg paper or fax) or even ring up.  The business process model needs to show this (ie. revert to manual process).  So it isn't illogical - just incomplete in terms of UBL documents.  I think the ebBP description should handle this.

When it comes to what to do with UBL 2.0 we could review this process. When we added the Acknowledgement Response Code (and fixed it to the two UBL document types) we hadn't thought through that they may are not mutually exclusive and the process may need both (given the current definitions).  We could consider extending the code list to allow both(or either).  We have even discussed rationalizing these into one document type thus fixing the issue entirely.  I felt this was radical but maybe it would make our life simpler.  We could just add the AcceptedIndicator to OrderResponse and make most of the other components optional.  So we can support the 'simple' implementation and a more complex one using the same document.

But if we want to keep both documents then as another approach we should consider how we propose solving a similar issue with the Request for Catalogue document.  This allows the Buyer to say whether they want a Price Update or Item Update document in response.  But in that case we have defined two Indicators (PricingUpdateRequestIndicator and ItemUpdateRequestIndicator).  This seems a better solution.  Maybe for UBL 2.0 we could just have an Indicator in the Order to say whether and OrderResponseSimple and/or an OrderResponse can be accepted.  Then we can drop the AcknowledgementResponseCode.

Stephen Green wrote:

Hi Tim

Yes, in UBL 2, and RejectionReasonNote (if that's what OrderResponseSimple has)
but my main point is to seek detail about the rules or implementation guidance for
UBL 1.0 such as can be used to improve the example ebBP definition (aware that
folk may try to base implementations on the example despite ernest warnings that
it is purely illustrative). Any suggestions? I guess we might want to be forwards
compatible with UBL 2 too as much as possible so maybe Denmark folk have suggestions
too (Mikkel offered in the call yesterday). I think this would be an excellent exercise
in any case and the outcome might be very useful to UBL implementers and designers,
let alone good for marketing - in mutual interest with ebBP of course.

All the best



Tim McGrath <tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au> <mailto:tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au>  10/11/05 00:15:43 >>>

is your proposal that Order Response also should have an AcceptedIndicator?

Stephen Green wrote:


Greetings UBL TC

This issue arises because the ebBP TC are seeking
to improve their 'drop-ship' example of a business
process definition for use of UBL 1.0 documents in
a drop-ship or marketplace environment and I have
pointed out the need to correct some of the details
of the process's 'condition expressions'


The condition expressions denote the conditions
which act as the basis for decisions at forks in the
process and acceptance or rejection of the order
is a key one of these.

The ebBP TC would welcome any help from the UBL
TC in advising on these conditions. I would like to help
pin down exactly how a UBL 1.0 Order, OrderResponse
and OrderResponseSimple relate to each other in a
typical process, for instance:

Since the UBL 1.0 documentation states that the
OrderResponseSimple is the document to use by
the Seller to show rejection or acceptance of the
order whereas it states that the OrderResponse is
to be used to alter the line of the order (with no
mention of using it to show acceptance or rejection
and no apparent way in the document or lines of
an OrderResponse to cater for this), I'd like to
understand whether there is therefore a logical
weakness, with 1.0, in using the OrderResponse
enumeration of the AcknowledgementResponseCode
in an Order. The latter would have the weakness,
it seems, in limiting the response to just OrderResponse
so that there is then no way to properly signal
acceptance or rejection of the Order (in the business
document layer).

If this is a weakness, then this ebBP exercise, I think,
is providing a good opportunity for UBL to receive
valuable implementation feedback of sorts and it might
be that it leads to improvements in 2.0 (for the second
committee draft, at this stage, I suppose) and this particular
case shows that we may need to question whether the
2.0 process should emphasise the possibility of using
the OrderResponse to show rejection/acceptance of an
Order - the OrderResponseSimple does provide for this
functionality but does the OrderResponse?. Alternatively
we might want to ensure that OrderResponse has this
functionailty and if not then, besides changing the
documentation of the process, we might want to
reconsider the inclusion in the Order, etc of the
AcknowledgementResponseCode or reconsider its

All the best

Stephen Green



"Stephen Green" <stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk> <mailto:stephen_green@bristol-city.gov.uk>  09/11/05 11:18:24 >>>


Looking at how all the documents of UBL 1.0 might
be used together in a business process, I come across
a problem: if the Order has its
AcknowledgementResponseCode set to "OrderResponse"
by the Buyer, how would the OrderResponse indicate
whether the Order has been accepted or rejected?
(OrderResponseSimple has AcceptedIndicator)

Thanks for any light anyone can shed on this.

All the best

Stephen Green

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tim mcgrath
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DOCUMENT ENGINEERING: Analyzing and Designing Documents for Business Informatics and Web Services

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