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Subject: Re: [ubl-psc] The use of Order Response


it does suggest to me that the OrderResponseSimple is being used as 
OrderAcknowledgement - so maybe it is just that the title is wrong?

Martin Forsberg wrote:
> I changed the subject to something more specific.
>
> Sorry, Of course I meant 1..n.
>
> Yes, It would need to be 0..n if we have a document indicator for full
> accept.
>
> Regarding "Arrival of order". In sweden we use three different responses to
> orders (in edifact) - Message ack (a technical response (CONTRL)), Order
> acknowledgment (I acknowledge that the order has arrived and I know who you
> are and so on (ORDRSP), Order Response (A response to the actual order lines
> - with delivery dates and acceptance/rejections (ORDRSP)).
>
> The acknowledgment uses no lines and the response uses lines.
>
> /Martin
>
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Roberto Cisternino [mailto:roberto@javest.com]
>> Sent: den 23 november 2007 12:33
>> To: Martin Forsberg
>> Cc: roberto@javest.com; 'Peter Borresen'; ubl-psc@lists.oasis-open.org
>> Subject: RE: [ubl-psc] UBL 2.0 Update proposals
>>
>> 1..n,
>> I see now.
>>
>> My opinion is the real error of OrderResponse is to require a line
>> item.
>>
>> Otherwise it could be correct to say the OrderResponse can be just an
>> ACK
>> (like the description says).
>>
>> I understand the OrderResponse description is not correct as the actual
>> response cannot be considered a simple aknowledge which should be
>> something  like "I confirm the Order is arrived".
>>
>> Thanks Martin
>>
>> Roberto
>>
>>
>>     
>>> The cardinality of line is 0..n so it can't be done in the current
>>>       
>> version
>>     
>>> /Martin
>>>
>>>       
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Roberto Cisternino [mailto:roberto@javest.com]
>>>> Sent: den 23 november 2007 12:20
>>>> To: Martin Forsberg
>>>> Cc: 'Peter Borresen'; ubl-psc@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [ubl-psc] UBL 2.0 Update proposals
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> can the OrderResponse without line items interpreted as a full
>>>> acceptance ?
>>>>
>>>> It will be just an ACK.
>>>>
>>>> Roberto Cisternino
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> I agree that it is unclear how to use an OrderResponse as a full
>>>>> acceptance,
>>>>> but I think it's because the lack of some code values or
>>>>>           
>>>> alternatively a
>>>>         
>>>>> new
>>>>> indicator. I don't agree that OrderResponseSimple should be the
>>>>>           
>> only
>>     
>>>> way
>>>>         
>>>>> of
>>>>> giving full acceptance/rejection.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think it is a good idea to change message type just
>>>>>           
>> because
>>     
>>>> you
>>>>         
>>>>> accept 10 of 10 lines, and another message type when accepting 9
>>>>>           
>> of
>>     
>>>> 10
>>>>         
>>>>> lines. So by giving the OrderResponse ability to clearly indicate
>>>>>           
>>>> full
>>>>         
>>>>> acceptance (on document level and/or on each line) UBL would align
>>>>>           
>>>> better
>>>>         
>>>>> to
>>>>> both existing systems and to existing standards like EDIFACT. That
>>>>>           
>>>> would
>>>>         
>>>>> also make conversion easier since you don't have to change message
>>>>>           
>>>> type if
>>>>         
>>>>> 10 out of 10 lines in the EDIFACT message are accepted.
>>>>>
>>>>> I see the two message types (OrderResponse/OrderResponseSimple) as
>>>>> responses
>>>>> used in different types of order processes.
>>>>>
>>>>> /Martin Forsberg
>>>>> Ecru Consulting
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Peter Borresen [mailto:plb@itst.dk]
>>>>>> Sent: den 23 november 2007 11:43
>>>>>> To: Martin Forsberg; ubl-psc@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>> Subject: SV: [ubl-psc] UBL 2.0 Update proposals
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Martin,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure you agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I said there are two ways of doing it:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) A generic OrderResponse document that can be used both as
>>>>>>             
>>>> response
>>>>         
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> lines and the order as a whole
>>>>>> 2) Two seperate documents, one for each purposes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think you go for 1, where I think 2 is the most simple
>>>>>>             
>> solution.
>>     
>>>>>> If you go for number, you must specify business rules that
>>>>>>             
>> handles
>>     
>>>> the
>>>>         
>>>>>> conflics I mentioned below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>>>>>> Fra: Martin Forsberg [mailto:martin.forsberg@ecru.se]
>>>>>> Sendt: 22. november 2007 15:59
>>>>>> Til: Peter Borresen; ubl-psc@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>> Emne: RE: [ubl-psc] UBL 2.0 Update proposals
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree - there is something missing in OrderResponse to make a
>>>>>>             
>>>> clear
>>>>         
>>>>>> statement whether you accept or not. In EDIFACT and in the future
>>>>>> cefact
>>>>>> order, you have a response type on header-level (document level)
>>>>>>             
>> and
>>     
>>>> on
>>>>         
>>>>>> line
>>>>>> level where the status is given.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Martin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Peter Borresen [mailto:plb@itst.dk]
>>>>>>> Sent: den 22 november 2007 15:08
>>>>>>> To: Martin Forsberg; ubl-psc@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>>> Subject: SV: [ubl-psc] UBL 2.0 Update proposals
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Martin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then, maybe you can help me anwering a question: How can you
>>>>>>>               
>> tell
>>     
>>>>>>> whether nothing has changed from the Order to the
>>>>>>>               
>> OrderRepesponse?
>>     
>>>>>>> When are two instances of theese to different messages alike?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An acknowledging ordering flow must end with an
>>>>>>>               
>>>> OrderResponseSimple.
>>>>         
>>>>>>> To my mind OrderResponseSimple is not a simple version of
>>>>>>> orderResponse, but a document, that ends the ordering process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Putting an AcceptIndication into OrderResponse will redefine
>>>>>>>               
>> both
>>     
>>>>>>> documents.
>>>>>>> I am not sure we agreed on this in NES (becaused we sticked to
>>>>>>>               
>> the
>>     
>>>>>>> orderResponseSimple), but I am sure that I managed to convince
>>>>>>>               
>>>> Mark
>>>>         
>>>>>>> that There was a need for OrderResponseSimple, or orderResponse
>>>>>>> Stupid, as he called it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's say that we have an AcceptIndicator in OrderReponse. If
>>>>>>>               
>> that
>>     
>>>>>> one
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> is set to true and one of the lines has changed. What does it
>>>>>>>               
>>>> means?
>>>>         
>>>>>>> Or opposite if the AcceptIndicator is false and nothing has
>>>>>>>               
>>>> changed?
>>>>         
>>>>>>> Accepting or rejecting the Order as a whole is a diffenrent
>>>>>>>               
>> scope
>>     
>>>>>> than
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> the OrderResponse, which really is an OrderLineRespose Sample.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
>>>>>>> Fra: Martin Forsberg [mailto:martin.forsberg@ecru.se]
>>>>>>> Sendt: 22. november 2007 14:23
>>>>>>> Til: Peter Borresen; 'Tim McGrath'; ubl-psc@lists.oasis-
>>>>>>>               
>> open.org
>>     
>>>>>>> Emne: RE: [ubl-psc] UBL 2.0 Update proposals
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Peter,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I must disagree with your disagreement :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *****
>>>>>>> PLB: I disagree with this because, it conflicts with the use of
>>>>>>> OrderResponse. OrderReponse is allways used when something in
>>>>>>>               
>> the
>>     
>>>>>>> order is not accepted, otherwise the OrderResponseSimple
>>>>>>>               
>>>> (OrderAccept
>>>>         
>>>>>>> + OrderReject´as one document) is used.
>>>>>>> *****
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can make a full accept with OrderResponse (no changes on
>>>>>>>               
>> any
>>     
>>>>>> lines
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> or accept with changes). If the seller substitutes an item,
>>>>>>>               
>> based
>>     
>>>> on
>>>>         
>>>>>>> the buyers proposal, then I would say the OrderResponse is an
>>>>>>> acceptance. Or does it say somewhere that only
>>>>>>>               
>> OrderResponseSimple
>>     
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> be used for full accept/reject? I know we've had this
>>>>>>>               
>> discussionen
>>     
>>>> in
>>>>         
>>>>>>> NES, but I can't remember the outcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> /Martin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>               
>> ---
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>>>>>>             
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>>>>>>> at:
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>>>>>>>               
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>>>>>>             
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>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> --
>>>> UBL ITLSC
>>>> co-chair
>>>> Roberto Cisternino
>>>>         
>>>
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>> --
>> UBL ITLSC
>> co-chair
>> Roberto Cisternino
>>     
>
>
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-- 
regards
tim mcgrath
phone: +618 93352228  
postal: po box 1289   fremantle    western australia 6160
web: http://www.portcomm.com.au/tmcgrath



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