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Subject: Re: SV: [ubl-psc] AccountingSupplierParty and AccountingCustomerParty
> Dear Roberto and Oriol
>
> The Party model in UBL 2.0 is a static, qualified party model. A party is
> a
> role and is defined by which documents it sends and receives. This is all
> well defined in the UBL 2.0 documentation.
>
> All parties can act on behalf of another part. The party that is legal
> responsible for the action is stated in Party legal entity. The
> AccountingSupplierParty is ALLWAYS the issuer of the invoice,
by the legal (and tax) point of view yes, an Invoice is issued by the
supplier which is always the responsible for it.
but there was a requirement to add the a separate Issuer party (the
outsourcing provider) that is executing the issuing action.
It is clear we are talking of the issuing "action" and the Issuer party
meaning under the law.
So there are two meanings for the Issuer party:
1) The legal meaning that says the issuer is the supplier party mentioned
in the Involice header and the ONLY responsible of the Invoice.
2) The trade service meaning that is intended to identify the party
external to the supplier which is providing the service of Invoice
issuing.
> but the party
> legalEntity may differ from the Party specified. We can have a buyerparty
> x
> who is purchasing something for company y. In this case the company
> registration number (PartyTaxScheme.CompanyID) for the buyer will not be
> the
> same as for the buyers legal entity. The same thing applies for all other
> parties in the model. There may be a need to clear this a bit in the
> definitions, and maybe we also need the extend the party legalEntity..
Peter I strongly think we are forcing the semantic meaning of the Party
and its sub information items.
I agree that there could be another party buying something for another
party... and it is the case of the Seller and the Supplier, and for this
we have already two separated Parties.
I desagree on changing the meaning of the PartyLegalEntity information as
it is required and associated to the same Party where it is contained and
is showing the "legal" site and names and registrations that are mandated
to appear on the Invoice document according the taxation systems and laws.
So the Party could be "Telecom Italia - Genoa" and the PartyLegalEntity
could further specify that the legal entity is "Telecom Italia - Milan"
with all offical IDs provided by the Chambre of Commerce and business
registries.
PartyLegalEntity is a detail like PartyTaxScheme and is a property of Party.
>
> "Registration ID of a national business register" is not provided by UBL.
> In
> Denmark the VAT number is used, the same applies for "Registration ID of
> particular registers", and License ID.
Peter, this is the issue, you are too constrained by Danish requirements,
right it is understendable, but you should know that both PartyTaxScheme
and PartyLegalEntity are required infromation in many EU or abroad
countries.
You should read all the annotations provided by UBL for the
PartyLegalEntity and you will note that this aggregate is exaclty what I
am describing... it is for business registers IDs and similar legal info.
UBL is derived by EDIFact too, so please read GS1 EANCOM implementation of
EDIFact or any other implmentation and you will find the same structure of
the legal entity information and the same mappings.
These requirements are stable in the time, I am sure.
Please PSC let's continue this discussion, it seems to me very important
to be addressed now.
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Peter
Thanks Peter
>
>
> -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
> Fra: Oriol Bausą [mailto:ORIOL@INVINET.ORG]
> Sendt: 16. december 2009 11:24
> Til: UBL PSC
> Emne: Re: [ubl-psc] AccountingSupplierParty and AccountingCustomerParty
>
> Hi Roberto, I share your vision, and I have had the same issues when
> dealing
> with outsourcing, Oriol
>
> El 15/12/2009, a las 14:55, Roberto Cisternino escribió:
>
>> Hello PSC,
>>
>> I am seriously confused by recent clarifications I obtained during the
>> last PSC meetings about the issuer party of the invoice, the party
>> legal entity information and accounting parties (supplier or
>> customer).
>>
>> I find there is some confusion (that could be in my mind of course)
>> but I hope you can explain me better.
>>
>> Here below I provide you my understanding, ideas and requirements
>> coming from real world use cases, then you could please try to
>> understand where are the mistakes:
>>
>> 1) The Accounting Supplier Party and the Accounting Customer Party are
>> either parties required to be mentioned into an Invoice and registered
>> as part of the bookkeeping into accounting records. These are the
>> parties involved in to VAT or other taxes.
>>
>> Specifically the AccountingSupplierParty is requested (in some
>> cases) to
>> provide legal entity information into the Invoice, for example:
>>
>> - Registration ID of a national business register (e.g. Chambre of
>> Commerce)
> This is not provided by UBL - in Denmark the VAT number is used
>
>> - Registration ID of particular registers (Building Architect
>> Association...)
>> - Licence ID (e.g. Import/Export license)
>>
>> 2) The PartyLegalEntity are legal information referred to the upper
>> Party
>> (the party wrapping the PartyLegalEntity info)
>>
>> The legal information are related to the legal entity of the same
>> company, not to another third party !!!
>> Example: The legal address and registration ID of the Party's
>> corporate.
>>
>> 3) The Issuer of an Invoice is "usually" the same party as the
>> AccountingSupplierParty, but when the invoicing process is
>> outsourced the outsourcing it is another party.
>> The issued Invoice, by law, is still required to mention the same
>> original
>> AccountingSupplierParty and not the invoicing outsourcer.
>>
>> The outsourcer issues the invoice on behalf of the supplier, but
>> the
>> outsourcer DO NOT substitutes the supplier from the legal point of
>> view.
>>
>> The ONLY case when the Invoice issuer (outsourcer) appears as a
>> Legal
>> Entity on behalf of the AccountingSupplierParty, is the case of the
>> LegalRepresentative when playing the additional role of the issuer
>> party.
>>
>> I am sorry but I have to desagree your vision because:
>>
>> 1) The PartyLegalEntity can just contain legal information of the
>> upper
>> Party (Party that wraps the legal info)
>>
>> 2) The IssuerParty needs to be created separately, as the party legal
>> information are reserved for the AccountingSupplierParty and are
>> often
>> required. The issuer is not responsible for Tax and is not
>> representing
>> legally the supplier at all...
>>
>> The Issuer information is requested by some EU public
>> administrations
>> or financial control authorities to verify the issuer is compliant
>> with
>> national or European regulations.
>>
>> Thank you for any further clarification
>>
>> Roberto
>>
>>
>> --
>> * JAVEST by Roberto Cisternino
>> *
>> * Document Engineering Services Ltd. - Alliance Member
>> * UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair
>> * UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org)
>> * Italian UBL Advisor
>>
>> Roberto Cisternino
>>
>> mobile: +39 328 2148123
>> skype: roberto.cisternino.ubl-itlsc
>>
>> [UBL Technical Committee]
>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl
>>
>> [UBL Online Community]
>> http://ubl.xml.org
>>
>> [UBL International Conferences]
>> http://www.ublconference.org
>>
>> [UBL Italian Localization Subcommittee]
>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl-itlsc
>>
>> [Iniziativa divulgativa UBL Italia]
>> http://www.ubl-
>> italia.org<tim_mcgrath.vcf>-------------------------------------------
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>
--
* JAVEST by Roberto Cisternino
*
* Document Engineering Services Ltd. - Alliance Member
* UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair
* UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org)
* Italian UBL Advisor
Roberto Cisternino
mobile: +39 328 2148123
skype: roberto.cisternino.ubl-itlsc
[UBL Technical Committee]
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl
[UBL Online Community]
http://ubl.xml.org
[UBL International Conferences]
http://www.ublconference.org
[UBL Italian Localization Subcommittee]
http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl-itlsc
[Iniziativa divulgativa UBL Italia]
http://www.ubl-italia.org
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