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Subject: Re: SV: SV: [ubl-psc] AccountingSupplierParty and AccountingCustomerParty


Peter L. Borresen ha scritto:
006d01ca7f0e$8299aee0$87cd0ca0$@dk" type="cite">
Hi Roberto

I am not suggesting changing the use of PartyLegalEntity. Please recall that
I together with Mark Leitch defined the party model -which by the way,
cannot be changed in a minor release. 

A term called "IssuerPaty" is in conflict with to current model (unless the
party is defined generic on this level). 
Adding "IssuerOutsourcingParty" in the header could solve the problem...
006d01ca7f0e$8299aee0$87cd0ca0$@dk" type="cite">
If a party chose to let a
subcontractor do the job of sending a document, the subcontractor is the
party to be described
to be described as issuerOutsourcingParty, right.

006d01ca7f0e$8299aee0$87cd0ca0$@dk" type="cite">
 - but the legal entity is the party. 
  
Is the supplier party legal entity correct.
006d01ca7f0e$8299aee0$87cd0ca0$@dk" type="cite">
Sorry about my lack of knowledge of EDIFACT -but since I was the editor of
UBL 2.0 I fill quite certain about what we meant.
  
I just wanted to mention that the requirements are the same or similar across the years.  As I mapped UBL 2.0 Invoice to EDIfact/EANCOM I can say the party legal entity meaning is matching the UN/EDIFact one.
006d01ca7f0e$8299aee0$87cd0ca0$@dk" type="cite">
Best regards

Peter

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Roberto Cisternino [mailto:roberto@javest.com] 
Sendt: 17. december 2009 12:15
Til: Peter L. Borresen
Cc: 'Oriol Bausà'; 'UBL PSC'
Emne: Re: SV: [ubl-psc] AccountingSupplierParty and AccountingCustomerParty


  
Dear Roberto and Oriol

The Party model in UBL 2.0 is a static, qualified party model. A party 
is a role and is defined by which documents it sends and receives. 
This is all well defined in the UBL 2.0 documentation.

All parties can act on behalf of another part. The party that is legal 
responsible for the action is stated in Party legal entity. The 
AccountingSupplierParty is ALLWAYS the issuer of the invoice,
    

by the legal (and tax) point of view yes, an Invoice is issued by the
supplier which is always the responsible for it.

but there was a requirement to add the a separate Issuer party (the
outsourcing provider) that is executing the issuing action.

It is clear we are talking of the issuing "action" and the Issuer party
meaning under the law.

So there are two meanings for the Issuer party:
1) The legal meaning that says the issuer is the supplier party mentioned in
the Involice header and the ONLY responsible of the Invoice.

2) The trade service meaning that is intended to identify the party external
to the supplier which is providing the service of Invoice issuing.

  
but the party
legalEntity may differ from the Party specified. We can have a 
buyerparty x who is purchasing something for company y. In this case 
the company registration number (PartyTaxScheme.CompanyID) for the 
buyer will not be the same as for the buyers legal entity. The same 
thing applies for all other parties in the model. There may be a need 
to clear this a bit in the definitions, and maybe we also need the 
extend the party legalEntity..
    

Peter I strongly think we are forcing the semantic meaning of the Party and
its sub information items.

I agree that there could be another party buying something for another
party... and it is the case of the Seller and the Supplier, and for this we
have already two separated Parties.

I desagree on changing the meaning of the PartyLegalEntity information as it
is required and associated to the same Party where it is contained and is
showing the "legal" site and names and registrations that are mandated to
appear on the Invoice document according the taxation systems and laws.

So the Party could be "Telecom Italia - Genoa" and the PartyLegalEntity
could further specify that the legal entity is "Telecom Italia - Milan"
with all offical IDs provided by the Chambre of Commerce and business
registries.

PartyLegalEntity is a detail like PartyTaxScheme and is a property of Party.

  
"Registration ID of a national business register" is not provided by UBL.
In
Denmark the VAT number is used, the same applies for "Registration ID 
of particular registers", and License ID.
    

Peter, this is the issue, you are too constrained by Danish requirements,
right it is understendable, but you should know that both PartyTaxScheme and
PartyLegalEntity are required infromation in many EU or abroad countries.

You should read all the annotations provided by UBL for the PartyLegalEntity
and you will note that this aggregate is exaclty what I am describing... it
is for business registers IDs and similar legal info.

UBL is derived by EDIFact too, so please read GS1 EANCOM implementation of
EDIFact or any other implmentation and you will find the same structure of
the legal entity information and the same mappings.

These requirements are stable in the time, I am sure.

Please PSC let's continue this discussion, it seems to me very important to
be addressed now.

  
Best regards

Peter
    

Thanks Peter

  
-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Oriol Bausà [mailto:ORIOL@INVINET.ORG]
Sendt: 16. december 2009 11:24
Til: UBL PSC
Emne: Re: [ubl-psc] AccountingSupplierParty and 
AccountingCustomerParty

Hi Roberto, I share your vision, and I have had the same issues when 
dealing with outsourcing, Oriol

El 15/12/2009, a las 14:55, Roberto Cisternino escribió:

    
Hello PSC,

I am seriously confused by recent clarifications I obtained during 
the last PSC meetings about the issuer party of the invoice, the 
party legal entity information and accounting parties (supplier or 
customer).

I find there is some confusion (that could be in my mind of course) 
but I hope you can explain me better.

Here below I provide you my understanding, ideas and requirements 
coming from real world use cases, then you could please try to 
understand where are the mistakes:

1) The Accounting Supplier Party and the Accounting Customer Party 
are either parties required to be mentioned into an Invoice and
      
registered
  
as part of the bookkeeping into accounting records.   These are the
parties involved in to VAT or other taxes.

Specifically the AccountingSupplierParty is requested (in some
cases) to
provide legal entity information into the Invoice, for example:

- Registration ID of a national business register (e.g. Chambre of
Commerce)
      
This is not provided by UBL - in Denmark the VAT number is used

    
- Registration ID of particular registers (Building Architect
Association...)
- Licence ID (e.g. Import/Export license)

2) The PartyLegalEntity are legal information referred to the upper 
Party
  (the party wrapping the PartyLegalEntity info)

    The legal information are related to the legal entity of the same 
company, not to another third party !!!
    Example: The legal address and registration ID of the Party's 
corporate.

3) The Issuer of an Invoice is "usually" the same party as the
   AccountingSupplierParty, but when the invoicing process is 
outsourced the outsourcing it is another party.
   The issued Invoice, by law, is still required to mention the same 
original
   AccountingSupplierParty and not the invoicing outsourcer.

   The outsourcer issues the invoice on behalf of the supplier, but 
the
   outsourcer DO NOT substitutes the supplier from the legal point of 
view.

   The ONLY case when the Invoice issuer (outsourcer) appears as a 
Legal
   Entity on behalf of the AccountingSupplierParty, is the case of the
   LegalRepresentative when playing the additional role of the issuer 
party.

I am sorry but I have to desagree your vision because:

1) The PartyLegalEntity can just contain legal information of the 
upper
    Party (Party that wraps the legal info)

2) The IssuerParty needs to be created separately, as the party legal
    information are reserved for the AccountingSupplierParty and are 
often
    required.  The issuer is not responsible for Tax and is not 
representing
    legally the supplier at all...

   The Issuer information is requested by some EU public 
administrations
   or financial control authorities to verify the issuer is compliant 
with
   national or European regulations.

Thank you for any further clarification

Roberto


--
* JAVEST by Roberto Cisternino
*
* Document Engineering Services Ltd. - Alliance Member
* UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair
* UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org)
* Italian UBL Advisor

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  mobile: +39 328 2148123
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[UBL Technical Committee]
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[UBL Online Community]
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[UBL Italian Localization Subcommittee]
    http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl-itlsc

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    http://www.ubl-
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--
* JAVEST by Roberto Cisternino
*
* Document Engineering Services Ltd. - Alliance Member
* UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair
* UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org)
* Italian UBL Advisor

  Roberto Cisternino

  mobile: +39 328 2148123
  skype:  roberto.cisternino.ubl-itlsc

[UBL Technical Committee]
    http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl

[UBL Online Community]
    http://ubl.xml.org

[UBL International Conferences]
    http://www.ublconference.org

[UBL Italian Localization Subcommittee]
    http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl-itlsc

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--

JAVEST by Roberto Cisternino

* Document Engineering Services Ltd. - Alliance Member * UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair * UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org) * Italian UBL Advisor

Roberto Cisternino

mobile: +39 328 2148123
skype: roberto.cisternino.ubl-itlsc
[UBL Technical Committee] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl
[UBL Online Community] http://ubl.xml.org
[UBL International Conferences] http://www.ublconference.org
[UBL Italian Localization Subcommittee] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/ubl-itlsc
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