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Subject: Re: [ubl] Discussion of substitution groups

Title: Re: [ubl] Discussion of substitution groups

That would break UBL NDR rules of course.
I think we'd need to start a whole new
discussion in UBL on this and that would
probably take more time than we have.
I remember we discussed it in Hong Kong
and decided we need the minor version
namespace changes.
I have seen the problems you get when
the minor versions don't have namespace
changes and they are highly regretable. I'd
hate to think of not learning at all from
Then of course there is the option that we
don't have minor versions and that seems
a catastrophic departure from all UBL has
achieved so far (IMO).
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [ubl] Discussion of substitution groups

And if we don't minor version our namespaces?
Mark R. Crawford
Senior Research Fellow - LMI XML Lead
W3C Advisory Committee and OASIS Representative,
Vice Chair - OASIS UBL TC
Vice Chair - UN/CEFACT Applied Technologies Group
Chair - UN/CEFACT XML Syntax Working Group
Co-Chair ISO TC154 Subcommittee for ISO 15000-5
LMI Government Consulting
2000 Corporate Ridge
McLean, VA 22102-7805
703.917.7177 Phone
703.655.4810 Wireless
The opportunity to make a difference has never been greater

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Green <stephen_green@seventhproject.co.uk>
To: CRAWFORD, Mark <MCRAWFORD@lmi.org>; ubl@lists.oasis-open.org <ubl@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Tue Jul 19 04:11:01 2005
Subject: Re: [ubl] Discussion of substitution groups

I believe we need to use substitution groups for minor
versioning as per NDR Rules VER 8 and VER 9, to
allow use of imports of previous versions' schemas and
xsd derivation. I believe this has been an important part
of the NDR design from the beginning of UBL, it having
been intended since then that minor releases and
customisations would use XSD-enabled inheritance and
polymorphism. The reason the above requires substitution
groups to make it work in UBL is the highly structured, type
oriented and essentially complex nature of UBL. I believe
it would be impossible or at best far more difficult to
achieve the same aims with a local schema design, This,
I believe, was the main reason for the use of the global
element and global type design. I also now believe it
would be impossible or very difficult to achieve the same
goal using XSD redefine (or any other XSD method for
that matter). (IMO) the only choice might be whether to use
abstract elements and types, forcing substitution and I
see nothing to be gained and much possible confusion from
this so I personally would rather avoid it, as we did with
the design we recommended to the TC from the UBL minor
versioning [ver] working group in April. Thankfully, Marty
has well demostrated that a working design for substitution
group use without abstracts can be used for codelist extension

Overall, in just a few words, we need it for XML with
XSD to be properly eXtensible in UBL.

All the best


----- Original Message -----
From: "CRAWFORD, Mark" <MCRAWFORD@lmi.org>
To: "Stephen Green" <stephen_green@seventhproject.co.uk>;
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: [ubl] Discussion of substitution groups

> This all the more persuades me that for
> minor versioning and codelists we have
> only one sensible option - substitution
> groups (without use of abstracts).

But if our schema follow our NDRs and are created from models as
expressed in the spreadsheets, why do we need to use substitution groups
at all?

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