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Subject: Re: [uddi-spec] request for item on agenda at next FTF


Adam,
 
I probably missed your answer to my question if there are any open standards / accepted practice for QoS information for WS?
 
Cheers,
Max
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Adam Blum
Sent: Friday, 6 February 2004 09:07
Subject: RE: [uddi-spec] request for item on agenda at next FTF

We absolutely agree that the specific information available should be defined by WSDM. The proposal is just intended to identify the specific mechanism that such information will be reflected in UDDI, which presumably there is value in the UDDI TC identifying.  But your point is well taken. I will be posting another revision of the document today that makes that division of goals more clear.
 
Wrt your questions:
- We think that having management information including QoS metrics is valuable to potential developers that may consider using those services and to administrators of those services.   So yes, it is intended for quality of service discovery.  We also think there is value to management software in having standard places to store that information, but on an aggregated and not necessarily realtime basis.  So yes, its to "assist management software" but not at runtime (it will probably not be their primary store for realtime and detailed information). 
-   I see this fitting in well with registries with access control policies, which would identify the management software as a  (or possibly the only) valid updator of this WSM information. 
- The proposal is a method of attaching WSM information to existing published services and binding templates for those services.  Those services and their physical implementation have presumably gone through whatever validation and approval process is appropriate. As you probably know we think an approval mechanism for service publishing is a very good thing.
- We have assumed that the administrator of the registry has determined who can publish WSM information attached to services (via the mechanisms outlined in the paper).   The scenario you mention seems to be of a service publisher that "self-assesses" their service or its implementation as having a certain quality of service.  We would consider this selfassessment to be a service level agreement not QoS.  And I agree it would be a bad thing if every publisher of a service filled in their QoS information in lieu of allowing the management software to do so.  Perhaps, as a best practice, ACLs should be used to restrict only certain parties (such as the external management software) being able to update the QoS information.  Some of the approaches mentioned for storage of this should make that easy enough to do.    

From: Andrew Hately [mailto:hately@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 11:10 AM
To: uddi-spec@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [uddi-spec] request for item on agenda at next FTF


My interpretation of the posting is that this is not detailed enough on what should be discoverable in UDDI from the Web services management information.  A better approach to solve the technical mapping between Web service management and UDDI should include a detailed review of the specification in development in the OASIS TC for Web services distributed management http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=wsdm


As an alternative, is it better to recast this paper as end user quality of service discovery?  From what I read, the recommended metrics are being used by end users to select web services, as opposed to management software. If that is the intent, I think much more discussion of the context of the registry and who is asserting each of the properties for the Web service is needed.

Answers to the following would help me understand the proposal:

Is this proposal intended to assist initial selection of a service from a user's perspective or assist management software at runtime?
Is this proposal intended to apply to registries with particular access control policies?
Is there any barrier to publishing services in the registry such as validation of the service or approval of the administrator of the registry?
Are there related services that can/should verify the assertions made by the publisher who has labelled a service with a  certain metric?

Regards,

Andrew Hately
IBM Austin
UDDI Development, Emerging Technologies
Lotus Notes: Andrew Hately/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
Internet: hately@us.ibm.com
(512) 838-2866,  t/l 678-2866



"Zdenek Svoboda" <zdenek@systinet.com>

01/27/2004 08:48 AM
Please respond to
zdenek.svoboda

To
<uddi-spec@lists.oasis-open.org>
cc
Subject
RE: [uddi-spec] request for item on agenda at next FTF





To me there are following two use cases regarding QoS metadata:
 
A) Searching for service by QoS metrics. Service QoS metadata might be helpful in this scenario. As UDDI registry does not allow for interval searches in keyedReference values, storing actual values (average response time = 5.82 ms) does not add much value for searches. I would like to see some well-defined categorization of major QoS metrics being defined in this proposal (I'm not expert in WS management so I don't have any good suggestion) so I know if the business service runs on somebody's laptop or on corporate Sun E 10 000 machine.
 
B) Reading service QoS info. I think that ideal way for accessing actual QoS data about business service is to define some well-known service (QoSService) that provides complex QoS information about the business service and reference the QoSService binding template (deployment) from the business service binding template (either via V3 compliant reference in categoryBag or tModelInstanceInfos). This approach is very easy for management vendors who would simply implement the standard the QoSService interface as layer on top of their QoS data stores. I can also imagine some automated process that performs some aggregation on top of the QoSService and regularly updates QoS categories described in ad A).
 
Regards

ZD

--
Zdenek Svoboda
Systinet Corp.
5 Cambridge Center, Cambridge, MA 02142
Tel: (617) 768-4240
Fax: (617) 621-1168

 


From: John Colgrave [mailto:colgrave@hursley.ibm.com]
Sent:
Tuesday, January 27, 2004 5:02 AM
To:
uddi-spec@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject:
RE: [uddi-spec] request for item on agenda at next FTF


I have always been very wary of adding such “live” metadata to UDDI.  Trying to describe things like availability in UDDI can overlap with the support for availability, workload management etc. in the servers hosting the applications/services.  Similarly, trying to represent service compositions in UDDI overlaps with flow/process execution systems.  Such systems can allow for alternative services and compensating services so I doubt it would be sufficient to deem every service inoperable that had a (transitive) dependency on a particular service that was deemed inoperable.
 
John Colgrave
IBM
 
-----Original Message-----
From:
Morgenthal, JP [mailto:JP.Morgenthal@softwareagusa.com]
Sent:
26 January 2004 22:10
To:
uddi-spec@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject:
FW: [uddi-spec] request for item on agenda at next FTF

 
All,
 
    I would like to add some additional thought to the work of Adam and Fred.  I believe there is a more generic category of "live" metadata that pertains to the registration, status, and availability of Web Services.  QoS is one such area, but so is application configuration and dependency.  For example, a composite application that binds multiple Web Services into one should be able to be described in the UDDI in such a way that if one Service is inoperable, the status of the entire Composite application--through dependency chains--could be deemed inoperable.  By capturing a) a category of data that is marked as volatile and b) a model for capturing the dependency of one tModel on another.  I believe we can accomplish the goals set forth by Adam and Fred as well as enable a much greater capability for complete management of composite software.
 
Regards,
JP
 



From: CAHUZAC Maud / FTR&D / US [mailto:maud.cahuzac@rd.francetelecom.com]
Sent:
Friday, January 23, 2004 6:05 PM
To:
blum@systinet.com; uddi-spec@lists.oasis-open.org
Cc:
GARG Shishir / FTR&D / US
Subject:
RE: [uddi-spec] request for item on agenda at next FTF

Dear all,

We are extremely interested in this topic and we are happy to see Adam joining the TC. Here are our comments (for Adam and the TC) regarding the different methods Adam proposed. To us, the best approach seems to be the use of UDDI data structure extensions (see our comments below).

--> TModel for QoS Information Pointing to External Resource
We agree that this solution is very limited since the QoS document must be processed to retrieve QoS information and no UDDI query allows us to get this information.

We have two questions for Adam: Are there only performance and reliability info in this XML document or can we find further details about the service QoS (such as all the metrics listed on the document as well as their units, life performance info, ...etc) ?

Also, how this method affect the compliance with the WS-I Basic Profile which states that a service specification must be describe in a WSDL file ?

--> Multiple Categories for QoS Attributes
We think that this solution is interesting since each service implementation is categorized with its own QoS parameters.

Of course, as long as you want to categorize at the very maximum a UDDI entity, you will always have large CategoryBags. It is the same for all types of categorization: for instance, a business, which is established in 30 different countries, will be categorized with 30 different geographical taxonomy entries (and that is why taxonomy browsing mechanisms are really important in UDDI).

For this solution, don't you think it would be better to create a QoS Taxonomy, which entries represent the different QoS metrics (taxonomy entries can be hierarchical with sub-level metrics) and create only one "Categorization" tModel to be used in the CategoryBag ?

Our concern here is how to provide users with metrics' unit in the CategoryBag? (does the ResponseTimeAverge is in second, millisecond, microsecond, ...?)

We guess that, with the progress made on the Semantic side, we could have another Taxonomy for units, and "semantically" make a relationship between the two taxonomies to provide Metrics and their units at the same time. But, at the moment, there is no way to do this in UDDI.

--> Extend the UDDI Data Structures
From our perspective, this method seems to be the best approach. Also, it would help drive adoption to UDDI V3.0.

Don't you think that the data structure extensions could be standardized so that it would avoid the issue of proprietary extensions? Moreover, we should determine explicitly which of these standardized extensions are optional or compulsory.

--> TModel for QoS Information Containing Multiple Categories of QoS Attributes
With this solution, we still have the issue of providing metrics' units within the CategoryBag of the QoSInformation tModel even though this information can be easily found in the WSDL file.

We know it is too late to open a debate on it and please bear with us for the following comment :) We just have a little concern about the use of WSDL in UDDI and probably you can help us to clarify our thoughts: Usually, a tModel represents a reusable concept. In this solution, if the QoSInformation tModel is categorized with the QoS metrics of a particular service, it is tight to this service and this is not what a tModel is meant to be. We thing that a tModel should be as generic as possible, representing a specific concept/protocole/taxonomy (such as QoS information) but it should not include any information that are bound to one service. What do you think? Are we wrong or did we misunderstand the method?

Thank you !
Regards,

 

Maud
 

-----Original Message-----
From: blum@systinet.com [
mailto:blum@systinet.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 2:37 PM

To: uddi-spec@lists.oasis-open.org

Subject: [uddi-spec] request for item on agenda at next FTF

We would like to propose that a technical note be created for how to store web services management information in UDDI. Specifically we think that common quality of service metrics such as average performance, reliability, throughput and availability should be easily available in consistent locations in enterprise registries of web services. We believe that this has great value for customers in providing predictable places to store and search for such information to supplement the information about specific physical implementations of web services, beyond what is natively available on bindingTemplates.  We also believe that having such standard ways of accessing this information enhances the value of web services management solutions for customers as there becomes a wider use of the QoS information beyond just the management tool software itself. This includes the ability for developers to use this information in search and browsing for appropriate web service instances to use in a given situation.

We would like to involve as many web services management vendors in drafting a recommendation on how and where to store such information. We have posted a rough draft proposal for one possible method of doing such storage (and several other alternatives are presented therein).

We are interested in discussing this at the February 10-12 Face to Face in San Francisco. It would be great if we could somehow get on the agenda for this meeting.    Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Regards,

- Adam Blum, CTO, Systinet
- Fred Carter, architect, Amberpoint

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