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Subject: Re: [virtio-comment] Re: [PATCH v3 4/4] Add CCW configuration field "indirect_num"
On Tue, Mar 22 2022, Halil Pasic <pasic@linux.ibm.com> wrote: > On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:36:26 +0100 > Cornelia Huck <cohuck@redhat.com> wrote: > >> On Sat, Mar 19 2022, Christian Schoenebeck <qemu_oss@crudebyte.com> wrote: >> >> > On Freitag, 18. MÃrz 2022 17:06:25 CET Halil Pasic wrote: >> >> >> I agree that the "including" is important, but I'm not sure about the >> >> "its contents are undefined". I don't really understand why should we use >> >> a plural here. What speaks against specifying that in SHOULD be stored >> >> as 0 by the device, and MUST be ignored by the driver? >> > >> > Both solutions would be viable. Personally I would just use something like >> > "Should be zero" if there is a value in recommending that, but I don't see a >> > value in recommending to set something to zero and at the same time requiring >> > to not access it in the first place. >> > >> >> Currently we say that \field{max_indirect_num} exists like a be32 field >> >> even if VIRTIO_RING_F_INDIRECT_SIZE is not negotiated. Which kind of >> >> implies that at least type invariants should hold. Of course, there is >> >> none here (i.e. every bits value is also a be32 value), but for something >> >> like an enum interesting corner cases can pop up. >> > >> > I can't follow you on that one. What has that do with enums in this case? >> > >> > Anyway, I won't persist on my suggestion to use the (IMO more compact form) >> > "undefined". If you guys prefer the more specific solution "SHOULD be 0 and >> > MUST not be accessed" then I will go that way. >> >> I'm not sure what mandating 0 and non-access would buy us here... the >> driver can of course read the field (e.g. when copying the structure >> wholesale); it just can't make use of the contents when it did not >> negotiate the feature (but why would it do so in that case anyway?) > > My train of thought was that making the device give us a well defined > 0 could benefit robustness. The idea was, that even if the driver was > buggy, and used the value we would still end up with some sane behavior. I'm not sure a 0 would lead to sane behaviour in an already buggy driver... operating with a limit of 0 would imply that the driver cannot really do anything, and I'm not sure a driver buggy enough to access the field would heed that. There's nothing wrong with a device using 0 if the feature had not been negotiated, but I don't think it will help much with already buggy drivers. > >> >> Also, I think junk remains junk, whether it is a be32 field or >> interpreted as an enum. It is simply not valid, even if it might by >> accident end up to be a defined enum value. > > What I had in mind is the difference between "trap representation" and > "unspecified value" in terms of the C standard. Using a "trap > representation" is undefined behavior, while using an "unspecified value" > is far less serious. As far as I remember, there are no trap > representations for enumerated types in C, so the example ain't perfect. > But if some code was to assume that all it can see it the values defined > in the enum, strange stuff may happen. While the struct definitions look suspiciously like C, they are not in fact C :) I don't think the spec defines anything of the above, and I don't think it should. > > >> >> So I think "undefined" should be fine. >> > > BTW the C standard uses the term "indeterminate value" in this situation. "Indeterminate value" is a bit of a mouthful, though; "undefined" or "unpredictable" from the driver's point of view should already capture it, as the driver is not supposed to do anything with the value anyway.
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